Navigating Fibromyalgia with Tami Stackelhouse

00:00 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
If you have been diagnosed with fibromyalgia or suspect you have it, then you are going to love this episode. Let's face it a lot of information out there for those with fibromyalgia can end up leaving people feeling hopeless, and this does not need to be the case, and that is why I was so happy to come across Tammy Stackelhaus's work. Tammy Stackelhaus is a dedicated advocate for fibromyalgia patients, offering the knowledge, care and support they need to thrive After being disabled by fibromyalgia. Tammy has experienced many years of remission, a coach for over 15 years. Her compassionate approach, gentle support and fun coaching style have empowered fibromyalgia patients worldwide to take back control of their lives and health. Tammy is the executive producer of the fibromyalgia documentary Invisible and the founder of the International Fibromyalgia Coaching Institute, where she leads her certified fibromyalgia coach training program. Tammy shares her insights and positivity through her fibromyalgia podcast and award-winning books. Her latest innovation, the fibromyalgia wellness style quiz, provides science-based guidelines for fibromyalgia patients to effectively manage their symptoms by utilizing their natural strengths. I had so much fun recording this episode with Tammy because not only is she a wealth of knowledge, but she is really just so much fun recording this episode with Tammy because not only is she a wealth of knowledge, but she is really just so much fun and such a compassionate, aligned practitioner. 

01:41
Welcome, welcome. Welcome to the Unweaving Chronic Pain Podcast. I'm your host, dr Andrea Moore, founder of the Whole Self Integration Method, and I am here to help you go from feeling stuck, from feeling like your life is shrinking due to chronic emotional or physical pain, to one that feels expanded back out again, to one where you get to live this one crazy life we have on your own terms. And if you have been feeling plateaued or stuck on your healing journey for more than three months, it is time to do something different. So often we put all the focus on the pain itself, but instead the place to really unlock healing and move the needle so we can move forward in life is actually by getting crystal clear on what your pain response subtype is. 

02:45
We end up feeling like we're just throwing spaghetti at the wall or at our pain and hoping something sticks, without making sure it is individualized for us and our nervous system. This pain response subtype assessment takes your nervous system into account, which is the most crucial thing for healing chronic pain. So to get started and I get instant results on that all you need to do is take the assessment that is in the show notes and go from there. All right, moving into today's episode. Welcome, welcome, tammy. I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. Thank you so much for being here today. 

03:19 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
Thank you for having me. I've been looking forward to it. Yes, me too. 

03:23 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Well, why don't you? I always like to start by having people say a little bit about who you are and what got you to where you are today. 

03:33 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
Oh goodness. Well, since this is not a day long podcast, I'll tell you the short story. You know I'm. So who I am? I'm Tammy Stackelhaus. I'm the founder of the International Fibromyalgia Coaching Institute. I've written a couple books on fibromyalgia. I am the executive producer of a fibromyalgia documentary called Invisible and host of the Fibromyalgia Podcast. 

03:58
How I got here, really? I mean, you could probably guess. I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia. You know, I was one of those kids that was just like always sick, like there was always something wrong. My parents used to joke that they would take me to the doctor for maintenance because there was always something to fix, and they would take my sister to the doctor for repair because she was the tomboy that was like up breaking something. You know, yes, that's great, so, yeah. So it was actually quite a long road to finally get my fibromyalgia diagnosis. 

04:33
My first chronic pain diagnosis came when I was a teenager. I had chronic, daily headaches, chronic migraines, and I remember that that neurologist visit. It was also my first not so great doctor experience and I remember him looking at me and saying there's nothing wrong with you, you just have headaches. And I remember as a teenager, just thinking what, like that doesn't make sense, like isn't that something wrong? Like how it doesn't compute right. Such an odd thing to say yeah. So you know, I mean kicking that off. You know, for me there it took a while to really feel like there were people who could help me, you know absolutely. 

05:24 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
I think so many people and so many listeners can relate to having like this one doctor experience or this thing that is said to us that really impacts our lives and impacts us and can take us a while to move through. I had when I was a teenager, when I had chronic knee pain and it was actually a physical therapist and I think I blocked it out Otherwise. I'm like I'm not sure if I would have gone to PT school had I connected this, but it was only in PT school that I connected this, looked at me and was like well, you have miserable posture syndrome and there's nothing you can do about it. And it was like when I was sitting in class learning about the female body and how our hips are wider and so it does create more like impact at the knees, but you can do something about it. I was like that's what he meant, because I remember Googling it when I was older and I was like this isn't a thing, there's nothing called miserable posture syndrome. But it like stuck with me for years. 

06:18 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
Oh my gosh, it's like damn, anyways, go on. But like, yeah, it is, it's just like what is this? 

06:23 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
So it just brings up such a good question of like what is this thing that someone has said to you that you were holding on to, that like ultimately is like probably some like bullshit thing that they said that often it's such an interesting comment about the headaches of like there's nothing wrong with you because it's like, on one hand, I feel like when it's said in a certain tone or with a different energy, it can be like there isn't. Though, like you, you know you're here on this earth for a different reason and you have different like things to tackle. Right, like there's nothing inherently or spiritually wrong with you, but I feel I'm feeling that's not what he meant. 

06:59 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
No, no, and you know, and I'm I. I feel like he probably was saying you know, you're a, you're a healthy teenager, right? You just happen to be having headaches and who knows, maybe that comment was more for my mom than it was for me, with her standing there right. Like, your kid doesn't have a brain tumor. Yeah, yes, yeah, you know, but but it's interesting how we hear that though. 

07:25
You know, I mean, for me it felt very dismissive, right Like there's nothing wrong with you, you just have headaches. You know, that's the way that I heard it, and so I mean that might've even been the last time I saw him. You know, I mean okay, I'm not going to get a lot of help here, so moving on. 

07:45 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Understandably. 

07:46 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
So that was when that was when I was in high school, and so you know the the next few years were just, I mean, random, vague, you know, hurting a little more, being more tired, like nothing. You could really put your you know your finger on to say, oh, that's what's wrong with you. You know, labs coming back normal in a typical story, right? I remember even at one point messaging my doctor and saying, hey, could I have fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue? And I remember I used the abbreviations for some of those, right? So CFS, slash, fms was one of the things that was being used at the time, and I was so encouraged to hear back from the nurse that she didn't know what that was, but she could make me an appointment and I thought, oh, okay, so again, another, just sort of another little hint of we can't help you, there's nothing wrong with you, like you know, it's you, it's not us, it's you. Yeah, so for me, I I actually finally got my diagnosis in 2007. 

09:00
Um, I got married, I switched insurance, insurance got out of the HMO, I was in. I think that was part of the problem because I didn't fit in their little box. You know, they're fabulous when you're in in their little box, but when you're not, they're not much help. So I got new insurance, got a new doctor. I finally got my diagnosis in 2007. 

09:22
I'd been married about six months, so that was that's a whole other story. You know, getting used to, oh, so that's what's wrong. Um, six months into being married, but um, yeah. And then after that I mean it was once I found a doctor that knew like, oh, this is what's wrong. Then we uncovered a whole lot of other stuff. I have Hashimoto's, so I have autoimmune thyroid. I have IBS. Of course, I still have the chronic daily headaches, the migraines and and you know all the other things that go along with. But finally finding a doctor that was like, oh, I know what's wrong with you. I studied this, this is, this was my. I actually ended up with somebody that fibromyalgia was actually the thing, like her focus in school, so just randomly picked her. But you know, that was, that was perfect. And and that is when my my road started to turn. But yeah, that was, it was a lot getting there. 

10:25 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, yes, and I like what you're saying about your doctors I think is such an important piece because there's a lot of and I think it's really understandable like resentment out there, for my doctor doesn't understand this and my doctor won't talk. You know, really talk much about it and what I tell people is like at least you're like they probably aren't saying it in the best way, no, but like at least they're being honest about what they don't know that it's not in their wheelhouse, because I think sometimes we forget, like, especially like a primary care physician, like literally how much there is to know about the body, like it is impossible to expect your doctor. 

11:06
It is not fair to expect your doctor to know everything and so finding the right doctor it is a pain in the ass. It is not easy with our medical system, it sucks to do, but ultimately, like it is far better for you to like figure out how to get to the right doctor versus expect your doctor to go do some research on their own, like it's a lot to ask. 

11:31
Like some people are willing to do it. Some people are, like you know there's willing. They're willing to learn about certain things because it makes sense for their practice. But, like most doctors are burned out. Most people, most doctors, are stuck in the shitty insurance model themselves. They're seeing like 30 people a day. They're not going to go research it for you and if they do, it's probably going to be some half-ass. You don't want a doctor that doesn't know what it is to go find someone else and I get that is a hard thing sometimes to come to terms with sometimes to come to terms with, but it's so hard and I think we also need to realize that. 

12:09 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
I mean we have to go all the way back to how our doctors were trained. So, first of all, you know the the diagnostic criteria for fibromyalgia wasn't published until 1990. So if your doctor is, like you know, a middle-aged white guy, if your doctor is, like you know, a middle-aged white guy, they probably were trained before there were even diagnostic criteria for fibromyalgia, right? So that would not have ever even been part of their training. And even if you're seeing somebody now, like you know, maybe a brand new doctor, at most fibromyalgia is just part of a larger conversation about chronic pain. They are not like. They don't go through a week long class or several month class on how to treat fibromyalgia. It may be an hour, it may be even just one sentence as part of another class. So, to really like, we need to understand that the expectations that we have of our doctors well, what we're, what we're expecting, is reasonable. From a patient perspective it's not reasonable. Consider the training that our doctors have had. 

13:20 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Very well said, yeah, yeah. And so for anyone who's like, well, oh my gosh, then how do I find that? 

13:26 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
person. 

13:26 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Well, that's why Tammy is here, because she's your person. 

13:32 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
You know there are people out there who do know there are some doctors, but just to like put some perspective on it. This is why you can't just like go to pick a doctor I mean, I was lucky to do it that way but but your average person out there you're not. You're the doctor that you just randomly pick, or your primary care, whoever you're lucky if they've heard about it, oh my god, I. 

13:57
One of my friends is currently going through nursing school and in one of her classes, fibromyalgia was being taught as a psychological disorder. 

14:07 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Which folks it's not, in case you wondered it's such an interesting thing where, like because I didn't deal a lot with like, mind, body pain, right, like, and I feel like we've really confused the nervous system which goes through your whole body and like, yes, the brain's part, right, it's like. But we somehow now I feel like mind, body pain, like we forget, we forget when we say nervous system. It's literally like I don't know if anyone's been to the bodies exhibit. Have you been to one of those? Yes, yes, body works. Yes, where, like, you have the nerve, like, where they lay out the whole nervous system and it's literally in the shape of a body. Like your nervous system is massive. Like, when I say nervous system, I'm literally talking about your entire nervous system, meaning the nerves that you feel with your little fingertips, yeah. 

15:02
And our brain has an impact on it. But it is completely inaccurate. Like I think a few people go back to my earliest episodes, I have, like um, a discussion of like the bottom up and the top down right and that we need both it's mind body, like it's. I really feel like in the mind body, where this is like a event. The mind body world has just turned into the mind world. 

15:27
Yes, and it's really weird because, like they started out strong and I feel like it keeps moving further from that and it's just become the psychological piece, and like psychological piece meaning like all mindset stuff, and I was like what, wait a minute, we've missed. Like we've missed the thing that we walk around in all day like our, our body, like our physical body. 

15:48 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
It's really important yes, yes, you know, and our, our brains are super powerful, right? I mean, you know there's the the all in your head thing. You know I like to joke that well, everything's in your head, because if you didn't have a head like there wouldn't be much going on. 

16:06 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
I always tell people people have probably heard this joke like 500 times. I think it's funny. Um, where it's like. If you go to a doctor we'll just assume it's your white male doctor and he tells you your pains in the head, you can kick him in the balls and be like that pains in your head too. It's technically, it is right Like I know what it like from like, yes, pain's produced by the brain, but like it's not. Like I feel like that is so dumbed down and simplified that like, yes, it just makes whatever. It's almost like being like a house that's on fire. It's like, well, that's where the one fire started, well, okay, but now the whole house is on fire. 

16:41 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
So like we don't just right, like it's more to fix it kind of becomes a pointless sentiment after a while. 

16:47 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
It's good for people to understand that it's not just the physical location or like with what you know, the point where you're touching that hurts, that there's more behind it. But I feel like, yeah, we've gone to that. We've gone way too far into the pain. Is 100 in your brain thing, to the point where it is no longer helpful at all. 

17:05 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
So right, and your average person is not going to think their way out of chronic pain, out of fibromyalgia, like there's really things going wrong in your body that we have to fix Right and and your brain is also super powerful and can help with that Exactly I love the way you said that. 

17:28 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, and I think the whole irony. I'm going to just harp on this even more of the whole from a mind body perspective. To me, one of the key elements is that we have to be step out of our logical brains and like, move down into the body to like what is the nervous system holding on to? Is such a core component? So the second you're going too analytical. You're usually getting stuck in a cycle that actually only amplifies hypersensitivity of the nervous system and makes it more what you talk about in your book. I love that you you bring in the saber tooth tigers a lot, because I talk about that a lot too of like your brain's always like looking for threat. It's like we can't. It's equivalent to be sitting in a busy highway and being like oh, just teach your brain to calm down, that you're totally fine. 

18:20 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
It's like as you're in the middle of the road. 

18:23 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Yeah, and your brain's like but it's not fine and so like. That's often like. I feel like very similar for something like fibromyalgia, where there are things happening at a nervous system level, like you said, at a body level, physiological things that are happening that your brain's like, and some of those things are really valid and need to be impacted. And then there are other things where our brain has taken a story and run with it and we can help our unconscious rewire that from a different way. But it's both, it's both, it's not, it's not either or, and it's not a fight of which one is right. It's just what's going on for you and there's always both, almost always both. 

19:00 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
Yeah, there always is, there always is and I think that there is. You know it's so. It's so funny, as we talk about things moving almost too far down to the mind, part of the mind body, we're also like moving in the wrong direction a little bit, because one of the things that I find I need to do with my clients often is to retrain their brains. Simple things like hey, you know what, you can set a goal and accomplish it Right. The fact that we get to tick that box off is actually more important than what the task actually was, because we have to actually retrain our brains. You know what you can do things. 

19:43 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
You can accomplish things. I love that. Can you speak a little bit more about that or like what you see people coming to, because I feel like this is really, really important. 

19:52 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. With fibromyalgia, you know, it's all it's like. Sometimes it's like all of a sudden we were dumped into a body that's not our own right and it's like we're in a stranger in a strange land and so we still have these expectations for what we should be able to do, but we're in a body. That's like, yeah, no. And so you know, when I'm working with clients, you know the last part of our coaching call is always okay. What do you want to accomplish between now and when we talk again, and more often than not, I'm helping my clients actually make their goals smaller because, they're thinking about what they could do in the body they used to live in, not the body they have right now, today. 

20:38
So it might look something like oh, I'm going to clean out the garage this weekend, I'm going to clean out the garage this weekend. Hmm, yeah right, I don't know that that's actually realistic, even if you are a hundred percent healthy, you know. So how do we make that more realistic? And so, after a while of of these things of you know, setting goals and then not being able to accomplish it more because the goals were too big for the body you're living in, right? 

21:06
now today we start to believe that we can't set them, that we can't make plans. Right, because fibromyalgia is so. You know you'll have good days and bad days, right? You never know what you're going to get, and so it can be hard to make plans. Know what you're going to get, and so it can be hard to make plans. But there's things that we can do to make life more predictable and make it so that you can set plans. You can set goals. You can accomplish the things that you want to accomplish. You just might need to break them down more. You might need to have different expectations of what done looks like right. If you're a perfectionist, you're going to maybe need to tone that down a little bit or do fewer things at 150%, like you do everything right. So there's different ways that that can look. But I'm very conscious when I'm working with clients about the fact that the first thing we have to do is actually like retrain the brain that you can actually accomplish things. 

22:13
So the goal is actually just to complete a goal more than it is to clean the garage right, so let's just like break down the boxes that are over in this one corner right. 

22:26 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, I love this. I think this is such an important piece because I know I personally struggle with this a lot of setting way too big of goals and then royally failing at them and having to reprogram that. And it's still a work in progress because man it is Because life right. I know I've gotten better and better at it, but it's always a work in progress. Yeah, and people so struggle, and I know this is my big struggle, so maybe I just see a lot of people with the same struggle is with like, yeah, but if I set the goal so small and it doesn't feel worth doing. 

23:07
And this is something where I spend a lot of time with people, because it's it's such an, a funny thing that gets in our way. And I find that usually there's other beliefs like that's just kind of like a not a cop-out belief, but it is like it's like a protective belief. It's just like kind of the easy one for our brains to grasp onto, but really there's something much deeper going on of why there's resistance into even trying to move towards that specific goal they're trying to set. And that is where, like, some deep exploration can can come into play, and it can be so different for everybody. 

23:45
I'm thinking of one client, for example, who realized that one of the big things that was stopping her was that she never did her grocery shopping. Her husband would do it, and she kept wanting, though, to walk more and like be out in nature more, and as she was able to go, do these like nature hikes more really well and not have any pain, she would then have these like really weird flare ups. That would happen. That, just like it just didn't make sense. Right, it was like there was really no rhyme or reason to it and it didn't make sense with the amount of activity and what we uncovered was well, if he realizes that I'm able to do that, then I'll have to go to the grocery store, and I do not want to have to go to the grocery store. 

24:27
Yeah so like I, it's almost. It's like I don't want to get better because I don't want to have to go to the grocery store. Yeah. 

24:33 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
Self-sabotage, right yeah. And then we were like what's? 

24:37 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
behind that, right, it's like you can be, like you know, it's such a, it's such a fascinating thing. 

24:41 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
And often when we, we we almost don't allow ourselves that exploration because we're like, well, that's ridiculous, you know, or like that, yeah, either that or or we put up a lot of walls of you know, don't tell me that I'm, I made myself sick, right, because that is also a danger of starting to. You know, talk a little bit that way is. We also have to be careful about not making the it the patient's fault. It is not your fault that you're sick and there might be times where you are self-sabotaging yourself. I mean, I tell you what, as a kid, I could make myself legitimately sick if I didn't want to do something like legitimately sick, and that's part of that that, you know, mind body thing. Again, our brains are powerful. Sometimes we do these things subconsciously right. 

25:34
Sometimes it's not even like yeah, I mean, your example with the groceries is such a good one you know, just not even knowing that that's what's behind it, so you know it's always they wanted to go to, or a deadline in their work, or something like that. They would end up in a flare either after it happened or before it happened and you could look at that and say, well, you know, it makes sense. There was a big event, there was a big deadline. You were maybe doing more, maybe not getting as good a sleep, all of those things were maybe doing more, maybe not getting as good as sleep, all of those things. But also like, at some point you can change that pattern Right, and you know, sometimes we're not aware of it and that's why we haven't changed the pattern. But when you become aware of it, like then, it becomes a choice. 

26:39 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes. 

26:40 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
Right. 

26:41 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Absolutely. And I think what you spoke about of it like not feeling like it's your fault, is such an important piece because so often, like to me, things that happen on an unconscious level even if it's me I view that or uncover those things I see it as like such a different, almost like entity, which might sound a little weird, but like to me it's like a different entity, like I didn't like it happened unconsciously, like it was not I had to do work to move past the like, the place where that felt like a self blame in a harmful way, you know, because I'm like, well, my unconscious just doesn't like a lot of these things that happen on an unconscious level are created when we are like three years old you know what I mean it's like you didn't have I don't know. 

27:30
To me it's pretty hard to, like you know, yell at a three-year-old and be like how dare you do this thing that you had absolutely like no understanding of it. So to me, I have a lot of compassion when people have these patterns, or I uncover a pattern myself, and I find it to be really good news. Yeah, to me it's like it's not a oh, I caused this, it's. There is an element of like oh, my unconscious is creating this, but that's awesome news because I can change it. Where, if it's something external that's impacting me, then I don't get to change it? 

28:05 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
And so you can't change what other people think or other people's actions, or you know exactly so anyone. 

28:11 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
But but I really do. I do need to remind myself of that. There was a period of time where that was really really hard for me to to see that difference and to not take it as self-shame and like, oh my goodness, look, I failed again, like I was probably the meanest person to myself ever, and so, like I get it if you're. Someone has that feeling of, oh my God, is it my fault? Is there something I did? I'm going to invite you to explore that and be like what if that was actually? 

28:44
really good news that it was your I'm doing air quotes fault. One, because chances are it's not like you did that purposely, right? And two, it means you get to shift it. And when things happen on an unconscious level, we're not in conscious awareness of it. You didn't do it on purpose. And so often our mind wants one thing and our body this is where the body piece is so important our nervous system is holding something else, and when there's tension between what the two want right, let's say, the mind wants to get better, but the nervous system is holding on to a story of like, oh my gosh, if I have to go to the grocery store, then I don know, maybe there's some bad experience that happened at the grocery store Like this is scary. So I don't want to get better, right, and we just have to be like oh wow, there's a part of our, of our body that fears getting better. Let's explore that. What's going on there. 

29:38 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
That's so fascinating, that's like so much so much of that is done in a protective way, right, Like our unconscious. Even the self-sabotage is not done to hurt us, it's done to protect us. And so there is a piece of you somewhere that says this isn't safe. And so I'm going to do what I need to do, Like the times I made myself sick because I didn't want to do something. It's because that something felt unsafe, Right. And so how do we, you know, acknowledge that subconscious? Thank you for protecting me. And what do you need? To feel safe? How can we change this? I think there's a lot of grace that we need to give ourselves, because it's not even even self-harm is is done in a way to fix something Absolutely. 

30:42 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Absolutely yes, yes To grace, yes To compassion, and of course, you brought this back to Andrea's favorite topic of feeling safe in your system. But I do want to give. What I loved about your stuff is is how you bring together, you address that side of things, but you're also giving people really practical tips for fibromyalgia specifically. 

31:08
And I think this is really, really important, and so Tammy has a book Take Back your Life. If you are listening, I'm holding it up, though, and I was just telling her. Before this started, I was like I am so impressed by like, how much is packed in here. Like to me, before this started, I was like I am so impressed by like, how much is packed in here. Like to me, it is like truly like it's like a manual that is, there's so much like you could probably be with like one chapter and like work on that for the next three months as, like your goal, like you're like one specific focus, because it is jam packed with very actionable things to to focus on, and and I think there is yes, yes to it's my favorite part is to exploring the subconscious and how do you make your nervous system feel safe, and all of that good stuff. 

31:51
But Tammy brings in very important things, like if you are not sleeping well I talk about this with my clients a lot too it's like, yes, let's explore our inner worlds, but like if you're only sleeping two hours a night, like you can't like no amount of inner work is, I mean, right, it can affect that, but like you also need to sleep in order to do inner work right. Like everything is, let's also make sure we're addressing the physical things. So I know sleep is one of the big things, but what are your big things that you like to make sure people are addressing, specifically with fibromyalgia? 

32:25 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
Yeah. So I mean the the four main symptoms of fibro, you know, uh, poor sleep, brain fog, pain, fatigue, like obviously we need to address all of those, Right, Um. But along with that um, another big piece is thyroid and adrenals. I have, like I could probably count on one hand the number of people I've met who did not have some issues with thyroid and adrenals, and I would say that the people who take my class probably, I want to say about a third of them discover they have autoimmune thyroid, just because it's not something that doctors look for, really know how to treat it's like another one of those things. So that's, that really is a biggie. So when I'm doing like if I'm doing a consultation with somebody and kind of trying to give them some new ideas, I always ask everybody if you've had a sleep study. Fibro sleep has specific problems and 45% of all fibromyalgia patients have sleep apnea. Now, that is a huge number. You could like grab a coin, flip it. Yes or no, that's you yeah. 

33:34 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
That's massive yeah. 

33:36 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
You know. So everybody with fibromyalgia should have a sleep study, a recent sleep study, like probably, you know, in the last year or two, unless you know if you're newly diagnosed. Now's the time anyway, so that's a big one. The other thing is, like I said, thyroid and adrenals and really having somebody that can interpret those labs properly, because there's a big difference between, like the general range of thyroid and like the functional range where you're going to feel the best, and most people look at that broader, wider range. So I could almost bet that you know, if you're listening, you have had your thyroid tested and they told you it was fine, and basically I never believe anybody until I actually see their labs Same. So that's that. Those are the two really really big things that I feel like get missed a lot with doctors. I feel like you know pain, there's a, there's a lot of things we can do. And then you know energy management, pacing, like there's a lot of work that we would do together to like manage some of these things. But those are really the two things that I think you know. If you're, if you're listening and you just want to like do something, I would fight for a sleep study and I would make sure you get somebody to to check your thyroid labs. Beyond that, like I said, you know we want to. We want to really work on all of those symptoms. So we need to work on you know how you manage you. 

35:17
That's a big piece. I kind of think of it like a like a three-legged stool. There's the, the actual physical, like what's going wrong in your body that we need to fix, like that sleep study, thyroid labs, all that kind of stuff. There's the, the lifestyle piece, which is, you know, making sure you get enough sleep and you practice good sleep, hygiene and pacing and all of those kinds of things. And then the mindset piece, which is, you know, how do you treat yourself, how do you talk to yourself, how do you think about your illness and the body that you're living in? Are you treating your body as the enemy or are you trying to work with your body? All of those. Those three things are kind of where my work like if you could distill it all down kind of fits into those three, three things. 

36:07 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, yes, that's, it's so beautifully said. And uh, something I wanted to bring up because I think that with a sleep in this c-pap, I or a lot of times for sleep apnea they'll give you a c-pap right, yeah, and this is another thing that I've noticed kind of in this mind body world, because I tend to attract people who are really like in the more alternative side They'll give you a CPAP right. 

36:22
And this is another thing that I've noticed kind of in this mind-body world, because I tend to attract people who are really like in the more alternative side of things, that there's so much resistance to something like a sleep study or getting a CPAP machine because it feels like, oh well, now I'm just like kind of catering to conventional medicine or now I'm just like it feels like they're ignoring their body. And so I always tell people like yes, there are. Like because I do know people who, by addressing and I know you bring in nutrition as well like by addressing certain things you can, there is potential to not no longer need a CPAP machine to like cure sleep apnea. However, when you currently have it, get a CPAP machine so you can sleep and get enough oxygen to your brain, so then you can have the energy to try to do the the like, the more natural interventions that you want, and then you can reassess. But like it's so, it's almost like I don't want to build this bridge that'll let me like get to the other side. Instead, I'd rather like keep getting swept downstream, over and over and over right. It's like like it's not. It's not a cop-out if you need to like a medication that's right for your body, if you need to use a CPAP machine. 

37:45
I've had this conversation so many times with people and they've been like thank you so much for saying it's okay to take a medication or use this machine. And I'm like, oh my gosh, yes, please, please do, wow, where have we gone? So it's so funny because when I started out 10 years ago not longer than that, 15 years ago I was like pretty, I was always pretty like alternative med, like aunt and my dad's a doctor, like we always clashed, like, and I felt like I mean so much of what I saw were people that were over-medicating, taking medications when they didn't need it, over right. It's like I saw all of that. So I felt like so much was like no, you don't need this. Like, here's where we can adjust things right now. That that's my place to adjust anything. Obviously, go talk to your doctor, but whatever, that was like my instinct. And now I feel like I'm like talking people into taking meds. I was like where has this shift come from? 

38:38 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
I know I know, and I'm like it's like. It's like somehow along the way, we have gotten this idea that it's somehow like more virtuous, or we get more gold stars, or we get extra points. If we like white, knuckle it, right. If we like grit our teeth and like, do it on, you know, caffeine, yeah, instead of of actually getting good sleep or, you know, suffer through the pain instead of actually getting adequate pain management, there are no gold stars, people, this is your life, you know, and I mean you know, sometimes I think it can help to to think of like other situations. 

39:26
Right, like if you broke your leg right, broke your leg in half, you're gonna go have somebody take a look at that. Right, you're probably going to even get a cast. You might even take some pain meds, and so fibromyalgia it might not be as obvious as a, as a broken bone, but it's still like there's still something wrong that still needs to be fixed, you know. And it might not mean being off your leg for a certain number of weeks. It might be months or even years, you know, but that idea of giving our bodies space to heal, that's what they were made to do, even with fibromyalgia. It's just a different timeline. It looks a little bit different. 

40:16
The rules maybe are a little bit different but, you know there's so many clients that I talk to. They're like you know you need to stay off your body, so to speak. The way you would stay off that broken leg or broken foot or whatever, or you're going to mess it up more. 

40:33 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
It's yeah and it's such. I think one of the big important things is the ability to one not take anything too far into one extreme. 

40:41 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
Absolutely. 

40:42 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Right, like anytime you're feeling like dogmatic or there's just a lot of tension around, like to me, when someone's like like gripping, like literally like gripping onto something, I'm like I will never take meds. I'm like, okay, well, let's explore that. Even if you don't end up like, even if you don't need meds, it's like that's just. Why is there so much like tension? Or like I will never be without meds? Right, like there should just be like this flow of like yeah, I'm taking meds because this is really what my body needs. It's just a tool, it's just. And if someone says something about taking meds, you're like cool, like my meds are great for me. Like I, there's not that like to me. When there's this like big body reaction of like I'm going to punch you in the face If you say anything about what I'm doing, I'm like you probably want to explore that. 

41:21
There's probably something you're holding on too tightly and sometimes it doesn't even mean what you're doing shifts, it's just the energy and how you're doing it that might be that might need to shift. But yeah, there's usually something there that is that is expending energy. That's the thing, because when you're holding on so tightly, even energetically, to something it's exhausting, it means there is something that is gripping in the background in your nervous system I mean not that they're like, not that your nerves are in muscles, but right, you can use the analogy and it takes up energy. 

41:58
And so, since so often with fibromyalgia, and so since so often with fibromyalgia you see chronic fatigue, it is worth exploring these things, even if it means you're not even changing anything. You're doing because I have seen the shift in energy when people can let go of what they're holding onto internally, because you literally are freeing up energy, and I think it's so hard to even attempt to comprehend until you've experienced it, because it's like we have no good way of measuring that energy expenditure. I wish we did. 

42:31 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
Right, it doesn't show up on your little step tracker right, it's not showing your calories burn. 

42:41
But there is so much with that and you I'm sure you have talked about this a million times on your podcast. But the difference between the actual pain we feel and the added like I call it the drama that we put on top of it, right, the agony, the all the things we make that pain feel, and if we can let go of all of that extra on top, the actual physical pain is a much smaller thing, you know, and being able to this is part of that mindset leg of the stool. But shifting our mindset from the way, the way I talk about is shifting our mindset from focusing on our illness to focusing on our healing or our, our wellness, right, it might look exactly the same, but saying, oh, I can't do that because of my fibromyalgia. Oh, I have to stay home because of my fibromyalgia. That is a very different thing than saying I'm choosing not to do that so that I can feel better tomorrow. 

43:44 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, oh, I love that difference. Yes, yes, yes. That's such a great example of like the energy, of why you're doing something, it matters, like it matters so much, and it's like if all you take away from this episode is just start to like, reflect on, like, what are those internal words you're saying to yourself, because it really does make a huge difference. That was such a good example and I think where I didn't finish my point earlier was that it takes some reflecting to be like almost like what's my bias or what's my go-to? Am I someone who, like is like I avoid all meds or am I someone who, like maybe takes meds a like too regular, like right, like in a way that you're like anticipating and you're taking medications in a way that just it's a don't want to feel any pain type of thing, right, and just by knowing it's like what's your usual response, what's your go-to and how can I maybe experiment with being a little more flexible with that? 

44:43
And even again, even if it's just a mental or a journaling exercise, it's really interesting on what you can uncover, because I really feel like in all of this, knowing your body and I think you talk about this really beautifully in your book and you bring this up. It's like knowing what works for you takes that self-reflection, that willingness to do that of like what truly have I been doing? To heal, because I think a lot of us feel like we're doing all these things and it kind of goes back to our earlier conversation. It's like not like a self, it's not like a blaming thing, but it's like when we really objectively look at what we're doing, we're like, oh, maybe I actually haven't been doing that much. It feels like it is, you are, but that's actually good news, right. 

45:33 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
Right. 

45:33 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Because it's like, oh, here's things, I can actually do that, right, and it's just. But it's like a, a being, a being real with ourselves, or if you happen, like if you objectively have done all these things, and it's kind of noticed, do they all kind of? What I noticed are people who really are doing a lot, is they tend to be biased in one category, like you said, the stool. So maybe they've done all these things in the medical side, like they're taking the right medications, they've gotten their labs perfected, maybe like nutrition perfected, but the mindset piece is neglected. Or the bias that I see in people is they're doing all these things in their inner world and like what they're doing in their outer world, like the pacing piece and all of that is completely neglected, right, like people tend to bias towards what feels most comfortable. No judgment of that. Me too, I bias towards inner world stuff. 

46:21 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
Absolutely, we all have things that are like easier for us to do. 

46:26 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
I will sit all day exploring my unconscious because that's so fun, but I know that about myself so I can know I can call myself out on like Andrea, have you actually taken outward action on that? Doing a process is I mean it kind of is action, but you know not you actually need to send the email Like you can't just like meditate your way to get an answer from someone Like you got to ask the question right. 

46:48
And it just takes that like being willing to like, be like oh okay, I see where I've neglected this part of the stool and so I want to bring in that other leg that you said that was oh so good of like our relationship with our bodies and how we see our bodies and you're talking about that really beautifully in the book of being able to actually, what did you say? Don't treat it like a donkey. What was that? 

47:09 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
I was like what was? 

47:10 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
that line yes yes a work donkey or something I can't remember now. 

47:16 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
Yeah, I mean, you know. I mean you could also think about how most of us treat a printer uh, right, like it doesn't work, right, and so you, like you know, hit it a few times, or you know, your donkey's being stubborn, so you, you know, prod it a little bit in the backside. You know, and and it's we think of our bodies as like this external thing, right, like we, we separate ourselves from our bodies and there's the real me that's stuck inside this body that doesn't work right, and it's, you know, your body is part of you, right? If you're going to hug somebody, you do it with your arms. Right, you know, you talk to somebody on the phone, it's your voice that they hear. 

48:05
My sister passed away years ago and it's her physical body that I miss, really, you know. And so we need to embrace that. And I know how hard that can be when you are in a body that doesn't work right or you feel like your body has betrayed you. I see this a lot in my clients who were athletes before fibromyalgia and now, like, what's my identity? That piece of me is missing. But you know, like we we said before your body was made to be able to heal itself. You break a bone, you cut yourself, like your body heals. That's what it does, and so your body really wants the same thing that you want, right, and so are you. Are you giving it the things that it needs to be able to heal right? Are you giving it the, the building blocks through good nutrition, lots of protein, rest, you know? Or or are you poking it in the back side like that, donkey know, trying to get it to do what you want it to do? 

49:15
Yep, right, one of the things that I do in my book, and I do this in my class, of course, I work with a lot of women, so, guys, if you're listening, forgive me for a second here, but I talk about bodies as she, right. So when I talk about my body, I talk about her, and recently my class that I'm teaching right now, one of my students started to. It was in one of her homework assignments. She started to write something about her body being it, and then it was like I see this dot dot, dot. And she said I just realized why you always talk about bodies as her, because by talking about my body as an it like it's this separate, I don't know completely separate, non-emotional, like whatever attachment, but when I talk about her, that's a whole different connection there. 

50:16 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Right to be with them, and so so much of my work is like helping people become embodied again. Finding the safety to be in a body that has pain, that has intense emotions. That is, in a certain way and it's it's so ironic often is like you said we're like your body and you want the same things, and so when we stop fighting that and can see that our, when we actually partner with our bodies and treat our bodies with like respect and as they're, like as a part of us, you usually get what we want, because now we have like a team that's moving towards it versus like us. Like fighting part of it down, which just uses a ton of energy again is constantly almost like moving you backwards, unintentionally. 

51:21 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
And it makes you feel unsafe even more, right, because you're not even safe from yourself. Exactly. 

51:28 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Exactly. Yes, I talk about this all the time. Like your poor nervous system is like, oh my God, I'm about this all the time. Like your poor nervous system is like, oh my god, I'm in this thing. That is a giant threat, and so it's just gonna be even more hyper vigilant because it's literally within something that has been deemed as unsafe and a threat and that we hate or that we don't like or has done us wrong, and your nervous system has no choice but to reside there. And so it's like. It's like almost like if you had to go swim in like a toxic sludge lake, like you would not feel safe. No, no, affirmations are going to help you there. Right, you're like. 

52:02
Oh my God, versus actually realizing that. Okay, let me get into clean waters and help my nervous system be like bathing in something that is safe and protective for it. I talk a lot about body respect versus body love. For this reason, oh, I like that. Yeah, because I find body love is a really like. 

52:27 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
It's a great goal and like, absolutely like, but it can feel like it feels too way too far on the other side of the grand canyon, right exactly versus. 

52:37 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
It's like just like if we can come into a place of respect, like we don't have to love somebody to respect them, but like if we respect our bodies, we can feed it well, we can go to sleep on time, we can do all these things and then, from a place of respect, then we can like build into the body love. But I love just starting with like respect because you can treat someone you don't even like, with respect, right Like that's right. 

53:00 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
That's right. One of one of my podcast guests a few months ago talked about how, you know, she considered her illness as, like a teacher, which I love. That too, it's kind of that same idea, right, like you don't necessarily even love some of the best teachers maybe that you ever had, but you're learning from them, you're growing because of them and you know, I think, most teachers too, most of them we're going to have some respect for as well. So I think you're absolutely right with that and that eventually we can get to a place where you know it's, it is that self-love, that self-care, but it's having some steps in the middle are important. 

53:49
Right, because we talk about so often I see people talking about an idealized place to be right, like I don't even consider fibromyalgia the enemy anymore. Right, but that's like you can't start there Totally. That's the end, that's not where you start. So I think that that's really important and it's also why, for me, my book was really important to have those practical pieces in there because, again, like you can't just think your way out of this. You, you have to. You have to bring that pain level down, increase your energy so that then you can go do some of these other things that are going to help. 

54:33 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Right, oh my gosh yes. 

54:35 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
Yeah absolutely. 

54:38 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
And finding that balance between the different things is so important, like, where am I in the doing, where am I in the thinking, where am I in the mindset? And just knowing, and I tell that's where I like how you address all of them. And and also I just wanted to highlight the yes to the steps towards the goal, otherwise it wouldn't be a goal. If you could just like do it Right, yeah, like, I mean, that's great if you can, but if you can't, then like, nothing's gone wrong. That's why it's a goal and I think so often we get that confused. It makes sense. And when we put it in other terms of like, if your goal was to build a house, you wouldn't be upset. When they start digging a hole, right, you're like oh well, that's for the basement to go into, but that's required. But if you showed up that day and started like yelling at the architect because you're like, or the contractor, whoever builds a house, sorry, whatever, not in that world right. 

55:34
Being like what are you doing? I wanted it to be built up, not down right, like you would never get anywhere. And yet we do this to ourselves all the time, where it's like, oh, how dare. I'm just treating myself with respect. I wanted self-love, so therefore let me just shit on myself more like wait a minute. 

55:49
It's like no baby steps, like of course you're not at self-love. If you're starting from self-hatred and resentment, like first let's move to not even neutrality. Neutrality might be too far a step. It's like it's gotta be these little steps along the way that you allow yourself to take and celebrate the little wins of when, instead of being like I hate my body Maybe you said I hate your body and then you caught it and you're like oh, I'm sorry body, like holy shit, massive freaking win, absolutely, absolutely. 

56:22 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
Throw a freaking party for realizing you said something to your body and then for saying sorry to it Like oh, my goodness and I think you know, we, we have to recognize, you know these, these stages of change, right that where the first stage is totally unconscious, right you're, you can't do the thing, you're not even aware that there's a thing to do, and then our next stage is we still can't do the thing, but now we're aware, we're conscious of it and this is is a painful stage to be in. 

56:54
This is where a lot of people give up, because they're like oh my. 

56:56 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
God, it's like it literally is the worst. 

56:59 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
Yes, yes, I had a uh, somebody that was coaching me once years and years ago. She talked about it like being in the middle of the lake. You get to the point where you can't see where you came from, but you also can't see where you're going, and you're just like in the middle of the lake. 

57:16 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
And now you're like I'm drowning. Great Thanks a lot. 

57:19 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
What am I doing? Why did? 

57:20
I start this, yes, and if you keep going, you'll eventually get better and eventually eventually get to the point where it's unconscious and you're just, you can do the thing right, but we forget about those hard stages. We think we go from not doing the thing, not being good at the thing, to being good, and that we failed if we can't do it that way. And the other piece to all of this is that we're all wired different, right? Our personalities are different, the way we approach life is different, what's important to us is different, and so I think that that is also a really key piece to be able to approach our self-management from the perspective of who we are as individuals and our personalities. 

58:13 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
And for so many with chronic pain and perfectionism and all that, we don't know who we are, so we don't know what that means, which means it's another place you get to explore, and so I just say that to bring in, because I know a lot of people's reaction is like but I don't know what I need or want or what not. Of course, that's okay, you get to learn you get exactly chances are, you actually probably do more than like again. 

58:36
This is where coaching is so helpful, because oftentimes, when you start asking specific questions or looking at things in certain ways, you you know yourself so much better than you are letting yourself see right because we have all these other voices too, right? 

58:51 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
yeah, it's just how other people see us. Isn't always the way that we who we really are? Yeah, and I know you and I talked about this a little bit, but this would be a good time to tell people. One of the things that I created to kind of help with this is a little quiz based on psychology to help you uncover your fibromyalgia wellness style, and there's four different styles. We have the perfectionist. We have the prevailer, which is the person who just kind of like, keeps going right, it just does the thing. We have the ponderer. I'm married to a ponderer. These are the people who really like, think a lot before they take action. 

59:36
Taking action is hard, but thinking is easy. And then me, I'm the playmaker. If it's not fun, I won't do it. But knowing that right, like the perfectionist we think about, like our fibromyalgia symptoms, the perfectionist is going to end up in a flare, have more pain, more fatigue, because they're doing all the things and they're doing them all perfectly Right. That's not my problem. My problem is that I stay up too late because I'm reading a good book, or I spend too long, you know, doing crafts that I might love, or you know play the guitar too long, or whatever. It is Right. But that's how I end up in a flare. 

01:00:21
And knowing the difference and knowing who you are can really help. You know what to watch out for, right. I also know that if it's if it's not fun, I'm not going to do it, and there's lots of things that are good for you that aren't necessarily fun. So I also have to be very like proactive about okay. How can I, if it's not fun for me, how do I either make it fun or not, do it? Make it okay that I'm not doing it, right? 

01:00:49 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Totally. I love that. Yes, thank you for bringing that up, cause that sounds like an amazing quiz and I think we'll help with that self-reflection. So much We'll put the link in the show notes. It's fibro quizcom. Yep, yep, awesome, yes, and with that I do want to be respectful of your time, and so I feel like this is a good place to kind of wrap up. But if there's one thing that you wanted everybody with fibromyalgia to know, what would? 

01:01:15 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
it be. The first thing is just you know I know we kind of started off with some bad news that that you know most doctors out there aren't going to know what to do with you. The big thing I want you to take away is there is so much that can be done to treat fibromyalgia. Is so much that can be done to treat fibromyalgia? Even though your doctor may not know, there are people who do know and we would love to help you feel better. But absolutely you can feel better than you do today. My fibromyalgia has actually been in remission for many years and I help people feel better every day, so it is absolutely possible and that is not a message that we get told very often. Usually it's just the opposite. 

01:02:01 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
So, yeah, yes, and I was so glad when I got connected with you, because not only does Tammy, it's like an amazing person to reach out to, she's got a book. I highly recommend it. It really is such a valuable. It's like a. 

01:02:19
It's such a like a compact but holy crap um loaded with information book to get started, but you also have you train other coaches, so it's like it's not like tammy's, just one per I mean tammy is one, but she's she's spreading the information and training all these other coaches to how to empower them with this knowledge, so it makes it so like so people can actually find coaches to help with their fibromyalgia specifically, which I think is so amazing. So where can people you know reach out to you or find a coach who, certified by you. 

01:02:53 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
Great question, great question. So the easiest way to actually connect is through my podcast website, because everything is on there and that's just fibromyalgia podcastcom. Of course you're welcome to join me, listen to my podcast. We're going to have Andrea on here in a little bit, so that is a great way to connect. But on that page there is also a resources link. That's where you'll also find the quiz. You can download free copies of my books if you want an email version, and there's also a find a coach link where you can find a coach. 

01:03:29
Coaches lots of places around the world, lots of different personalities, backgrounds, experience so I'm sure there will be somebody that will be a fit to you. The only thing that I will add to that is there is the option out there to work with students who are still in training. If you have a very complicated case, if you are very symptomatic, a student might not be your best choice just because they are still learning and they don't have all the experience. It can sometimes be tempting to go with a student because, of course, their rates are less. But if you do have a more complicated case, I would recommend scheduling with a certified coach, because they're just going to have more experience to be able to help you. 

01:04:15 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Absolutely. I love that and I love that you made, have made this available to people because it is so important. So thank you so, so much. And I think what I mean, like what a testament to like the work you do, the fact that you like built this fricking you know company and are training all these people and have this, you know what I mean. Like spreading the information, like that takes a lot of energy. So it is, you know, it is, it is a lot. 

01:04:41 - Tamie Stackelhouse (Guest)
Yes, but you know, that kind of comes back to what we were saying about goals. You know, if I had gone from literally being disabled because of my fibromyalgia there was a point where I literally could only leave the house once a week If I had tried to go from that to this, having written two books, movie, podcast, all the things right, no way I don't think I ever would have even started, right. But like, when I started, I was coaching just a couple of people and, let's be honest, I did it from my bed. I sat up in bed with my laptop and my headset and you know, I figured I could help a couple people an hour or two here and there, right, that's where I started. And all of these things come just a little bit, by, a little bit and healing is the same way. You know, it wasn't just boom, fibros in remission. It was okay. 

01:05:33
Maybe I need a little bit less of that medication, not even going off of it, but let's just bring the dose down a little bit. Oh, you know what I'm doing a little bit better here. So maybe we'll adjust that one too. Maybe I don't need this anymore. Oh, maybe I can do a little bit more, right, and so we forget that this is actually how you do it. Yes, we forget that, that this is actually how you do it. And I, I so identify with the tortoise and the tortoise and the hare, right, remember, the tortoise won the race. Yes, right, yeah, it's just little bit, by little bit, baby steps. 

01:06:07 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
So so good. I feel like I can start talking to you all over again, so I'm not going to resist. Thank you so much, tammy for being on here. Thank you for all the work that you do and, if this resonated with you, go check out her stuff her podcast and she's got amazing, amazing resources, so thank you. Thank you so much.