Empowering Midlife Journeys through Emotional and Physical Wellbeing with Madeleine Eames

00:00 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Welcome. Welcome, Madeline. I'm so excited to have you here. 

00:04 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
Thank you, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. 

00:06 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Yeah, I feel like our paths crossed, probably like five years, six years, how long, I don't know. I know I came across you. 

00:14
I'm like I don't know if you knew of my existence, like I was, came across your work with, like the highly sensitive person, a long time ago, back then, that's right, and then we connected on like a more personal level and I'm like I don't even remember how we've just like been crossing each other's paths over the years and it's well after I I heard you on the Joe Tata um podcast and you're talking about perfectionism and then I knew that I needed to have you come and speak to. 

00:48 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
you know that there are people at the Bill Nels Pain and Research Center and yeah, so I think we've been following like parallel paths. 

00:57 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
We have been. So why don't you tell people a little bit about who you are and the work that you do? 

01:03 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
Yeah, sure, so I got it. Well, my background has been in psychotherapy, probably for it's pushing almost 40 years now in different ways, and I really you know my roots are in trauma therapy and so a lot of healing trauma of all different kinds, from, you know, from the car accidents to, you know, childhood trauma. But I started to in my private practice. I started to see more clients who had had events happen, you know, such as car accidents. You know, such as car accidents, and you know the funders were wanting them to, you know, to get better and you know, get back to their work or or you know, whatever you know, back to their life. And what I started to notice was that, as I was treating their trauma, there was more often than not, there was pain in the room, chronic pain that sometimes you know as, as they started to feel better and heal, you know often that pain would decrease and sometimes you know sometimes it would be healed as well, but oftentimes you know it was a matter of learning to manage it as they moved on. 

02:32
You know, in their life, a lot about treating chronic pain and this is quite a few years ago and I started listening to podcasts and started learning more and started to realize this overlap of pain and trauma and how they show up, you know, in the body and in you know, similar pathways of fear and bracing um and and then just went, you know, full on and started to really get clear on I was also had a lot of hip pain myself and look into ways of really trying to heal at, at at and or at the very least, manage in a way that um was going be helpful and yeah, so that brought me to work at the Bill Nelms Pain and Research Center and it's just been a. It's been a just, you know, always just unfolding, never ending, you know, never ending unfolding of information and new ways of looking at things. And when COVID hit, I was doing all their online classes and programs. It wasn't actually online. We took everything online and have been able to really expand the program from there. So that's where I've had you come and speak and I've had people come and I've just been so enjoying that. 

04:09
You know the learning you know from, from everybody. 

04:14 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
I know, isn't that the? I feel like that's the best part about this field. I mean, I guess I'm sure other fields are like that, but it just feels like there is always. 

04:20
I mean, sometimes it's a little much, because I'm like there's always more to learn, like nonstop learning, and I love how you came into this, because I feel like I just had the exact opposite way of. I was working with pain and realized there was always trauma in the room right or there's big emotions in the room, and so I just became obsessed with learning, like about that piece, and then found the overlap and so it's like we kind of have these parallel paths, like you said interesting and we kind of met in the middle there somewhere. 

04:51
Yeah yeah, and it was just like felt like no one was like bridging these worlds together. But I'm like, oh, my goodness, like there's so, there's so much here, there's so much overlap, and I felt like the pain science world was ending it like, oh, there's probably some trauma, so okay, bye. And I was like, well, wait, how do we heal trauma? And so that's where I came across trauma work and somatic work and things like that. 

05:18 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, exactly, and you know, and being able to bridge both of them is and again, it doesn't mean you have to be an expert in both, but being able to, you know, have some knowledge and some tools for moving through both of them. And really it often comes down to realizing it's often the same tool. Yes, you know of somatic work, of nervous system regulation, moving through those stuck points, those patterns that that keep us stuck and and and paying attention to, to yourself, and you know, little by little, you know more and more. 

05:57 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, I love the way you said that, because it's not this like massive overnight thing that happens. It's little by little and over and over in so many different areas of our lives. And I think getting it's so funny because I do feel like the tools, so many of the tools, they come back to the same core themes, like you said it's, you know, connecting to yourself, listening to your body, regulating your nervous system. And even though these tools can be so broad based, I've also realized the importance of making them super specific to the scenario at hand. 

06:41
So and this is something I don't know if you had this issue, but like I personally pushed against it a little bit of like like everybody, for me, once I discovered how, like this kind of world of somatics and breath work and mindfulness and nervous system regulation, I was kind of like, well, everyone's already doing this. Like what am I here to bring to this? You know it kind of felt like, oh okay, well, I can just refer people to mindfulness. And like, what am I here to bring to this? You know it kind of felt like, oh okay, well, I can just refer people to mindfulness. And or you know it's like I can just refer people to somewhere else. But it didn't work. 

07:10
It would like jam, because they didn't know how to take that and they didn't understand how it applied to their chronic pain for instance, absolutely yeah, or maybe even like a male teaching, it might not resonate in the way that a woman going through midlife needs to hear it, even though, like, the core tools are so similar and vice versa, yeah Right. 

07:32
And I feel like this. It's so fascinating. It's like endlessly fascinating to me how the specificity of this work, I mean it kind of aggravates me because I'm like, dang it, it's always the same thing. But I needed to hear it in that particular way about this particular fear that I was experiencing, right, even though, like, I knew that, but I needed to hear that it also did apply to this one situation, right, yes, yes, I think you just you just nailed it there. 

07:58 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
It is really easy to say, well, even with so many people teaching mindfulness or so many people teaching breath work, but you have to keep on moving along with what you are doing and with what feels right for you, and you know the people that resonate. I don't know how many times that you know we've had different people come and talk and I've, you know, done so much. You know classes and teaching myself, and and then one day somebody will say, oh, oh, so you mean I need to like breathe a little bit deeper, and it was just the way. Perhaps it was said by me or by somebody else on that day that it landed and I'm the same way. I can hear the same thing and think, oh, I think I've heard that before, but today it makes sense to me. 

08:41 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, it's like a body like takes it and it's like a deeper level, like it's just like it clicks into place. 

08:47 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
Exactly, yeah, and sometimes the body is just ready and feels safe, maybe on that particular day, to incorporate that new information, because it it can be a lot when you're talking about you know, nervous system regulation and pain science and and all of that. You know nervous system regulation and pain science and and all of that and every time I teach that I still learn something new. Yeah, oh my gosh, you must feel the same way. 

09:12 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, and then I'm like oh my gosh what I've been talking about you know what I'll? 

09:16
do a lot I don't know if you ever do this with your work is I'm like, oh my gosh, like something will connect one day and I'm like, oh, I've been missing this. I need to like include this, and then I'll go back and watch. I'll be like, oh, I actually said that really well, just in a really different way, like I like clicked, even on a deeper level for me. I was like, oh, I said it there, but I don't know if I actually I didn't realize that I wasn't fully embodied and like receiving it. Do you know what I mean? And I've done that. A million like where I feel like, oh my God, I'm missing this piece, and then I will go back. I'm like, actually, my videos are pretty darn good. 

09:48 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
Yes, yeah, no, I know exactly what you mean and I almost feel sometimes you know that each week or each day I'm putting together different pieces of the puzzle and and it's like the picture is starting to look to shape, take shape and a little bit differently. And I and I mean right up until you know, probably till today I'm still putting, you know, the different, connecting the dots, particularly around patterns, and you know how things show up for people and particularly, you know, in outside of the clinic and my private work, work with mainly women at midlife now and how these issues and how these patterns have impacted them and a large number of them suffer with, you know, chronic pain, chronic conditions or, um, sometimes auto autoimmune, um, anxiety. 

10:40 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
You know, just seeing so much of this, you start putting pieces of the puzzle together yeah, and so with these patterns that you see, and, like you said, it's around midlife and I think you were mentioning how you notice that they get stuck in their natural evolution, and I would love to hear more about what that means, because that is not an area that I am super familiar with yet. 

11:07 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
Well, I'm really, really leaning into this. That it's partly from my work, I think, and also intergenerational trauma and how that also shows up as part of the picture and how when women come to midlife now it seems that unless we have passed through certain stages and you know in the trauma world you could call it you know certain periods of like disconnection or trauma that haven't been healed. 

11:39
That's one way to look at it. So another way of saying the same thing is that there's certain stages that a woman moves through in her life that will often replicate the way that her mother moved through those stages, just because that was what she saw. That you know. That was the example and each. You know, in each generation things are are changing a lot. We have opportunities that the previous generation didn't. So many more like I don't know of. 

12:13
You know, nobody, none of our mothers, had access to the internet and information about midlife or menopause or any of these things and um. So the other part about this time of midlife it can be a time, of course, it can be a very full and it can be a very stressful time. But it can also be a time where the old roles and the patterns we start out outgrowing them and coming to a place where women are living longer. So this period of our time is longer now than it ever has been before. You know, we really move into, maybe doing less or, you know, hopefully, you know, moving peacefully into our chrome years. So it's like this middle time and so this. So talking about, um, that sort of the evolution of moving through, you know teenage years, um, you know like the stages would be like the maiden years of you know, opening up the world, trying to figure out you know how to manage, and then perhaps mother years and then into midlife. 

13:29
So the patterns that I see coming up time and time again are parts of where we may have gotten stuck and didn't move through quite smoothly. 

13:42
So when we see a lot of worry, people pleasing, looking for validation outside of ourselves, of helplessness, not feeling, which often you know being in pain, it's kind of, you know, those that comes up, not feeling in control or connected, and sometimes even connected to other people, that can can be that stage of you know I've had a few women actually say to me I feel sometimes like I'm a little girl in a, like a in a woman's body, and it's almost because that time got frozen in time, where we got stuck in the people-pleasing and looking outside of ourselves for cues on how to move forward. 

14:37
Now, that's really natural when you're a teenager, you're trying to figure things out, but it can be really outdated and work against us in midlife. Yeah, so everything in our society. I'll just say I really want to take those things like people pleasing and perfectionism, away from being like somehow defects or yes, and rather than this natural evolution that never got quite finished, because society, probably your family structure, will tell you that that is actually what you should be doing, you know. So it gets solidified. 

15:19 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Oh, this is so fascinating Because I think I noticed this in myself of feeling like that little girl, right, and and and I noticed it in other clients as well I just didn't have quite the like beautiful way you have put that but it has felt like there's just this, and when we, and when we look around at a broader spectrum of like, it feels like people are in perpetual childhood, right, like there's like this lack, and some people much more than others, right, but there's this lack of like maturity that happens, and it's been like this. Yeah, this concept that I've been grappling with quite a bit, because I'm like, well, I love the concept of like having playfulness and like I can be super immature and have a ton of fun with it. You know what I mean. But it's like I've also noticed where there's been challenges of like stepping into responsibilities like that are like adult responsibilities, right, that feel then like too big, but they're really not too big. But that's what I've noticed. 

16:17
It's like, oh well, I'm, if I'm, if the part that's leading me is a teenager or a seven-year-old, then of course me just cleaning the house feels like way too big of a responsibility because it's not right-sized. So I feel like this is kind of what you're talking about, and and yeah, I'm so curious, I would love to just get into more of a conversation of like what, what do you feel like leads to that? I know you touched on it some of society. I haven't thought about it. I mean, I think about how society's affects a lot. I haven't thought about it in the way that you just said it, though of like how society like solidifies it in. So's super fascinating, but yeah, like what or you can speak to that more, or what else do you feel like leads to that kind of like a child stuck in an adult body? 

17:01 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
yeah, yeah, well, I mean absolutely, if it has been the messages, and it really is the messages that we see everywhere around staying young, you know, and, and, and you know having to ask for permission, and I'll be honest, like we live in a patriarchal medical system as well. So I see women almost turn childlike going to their doctor because they have to, like, hope that they're seen and heard, and and, and, you know, and we're all part of this, this system that can keep on repeating this. So there's different parts that come up. 

17:39
We get in this very good girl programming and I mean you can just boil it down to you know, it's a good girl programming, but where we learn, very young, what's going to, what's going to get us what we need, what's going to get us the love, the security, the, the approval from teachers, from parents, from, you know, the society at large. Well, probably going to be like getting good marks, being quiet, behaving yourself, god forbid, don't show off, don't get too big for your britches, you know, don't cry too much, don't be too loud, don't be all these things. So we, we go, you know, okay, all right, you know it's a little bit smaller, a little bit smaller, and then we're like stuck in in this like old archetype, and it can be. 

18:29
It's sound, you know, this is the programming of the good girl. It can sound so simple, like you know, just let it go, just don't do that anymore. But it can be so frightening, as you know, and from your work to start to expand beyond that, to start to voice your opinions, to start to, like, step into, you know, your wild and crazy and weird and loud self, like you know, I love how you know you talk about shrink and power, those moments where you go, oh, lockdown. 

19:05
I'm not going to say what I really feel in my family, but I'm actually like really angry To actually stay present and move through that. Moment by moment, breath by breath, you start to shake off this old, like you know, this old suit that's too tight. So I guess the other way of looking at it is sometimes we think, well, you know, the opposite of the good girl programming is to be like the bad girl, which you know, many, many you know. You know, at that age a lot of teenagers kind of go underground as the bad girl and we have this like flip-flop. But now we're a mature woman, working through, looking for validation, looking, moving through um people pleasing and overgiving because we're so darn tired so it it comes to a point where, like this, programming is actually, like you know, killing you your energy. 

20:03
So, it's actually a necessary time to start shedding that programming. Yes, I love that. 

20:11 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Yeah, if, if you, if like evolution was going like the natural evolution of like a woman's life was kind of going in an quote-unquote ideal scenario, when do you feel like that program would be ideally shed off, like what would be the, I guess, circumstances that would allow that to happen at a more natural pace? Because I would imagine that the way I understand like development and things like that is that there's you're always going to have that phase of like adolescence and teenager where you are like pushing back, where you're like rebelling and kind of testing, testing this water, then trying on different identities and being like who am I going to show up as the world? Right, like there's got to be that time where we're again kind of taking that opposite end and then coming back. 

20:58 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
So I'm kind of curious of how you see that or when the natural evolution Great question, and, yeah, cause, then we move into the kind of the rebelling part of us, like that, you know, maybe we have the opposite effect of the bad girl, the rebel, and then moving, if we have the support and to be able to be validated and supported through those times, or maybe sometimes you just have to figure it out yourself you start moving into. Okay, first of all, I want to say we never actually really leave it behind, but it's no longer in the driver's seat. So here's the beauty of this work, because we still have the next, next phase I want to talk about. But we can see, sometimes it's actually helpful to bring in the good girl, programming, yes, and you know, and to kind of, you know, bring that forward. 

21:55
you're conscious of it and you're, you're, you need, um, it could be anything, maybe you're, you know you need some validation or, um, you need to behave a certain way in a certain scenario and it just you know, you're aware of what you're doing and sometimes to tap on that rebel part and say like I really need you on board here because you know she's strong, she's feisty and you know, and she can be a little bit more outspoken, but your up-to-date self is in the driver's seat and can see what's happening. This is what I really love about bringing in these archetypes as a form of healing, because we can see an archetype being like almost like a blueprint, like an imprint of that particular group of characteristics, and I know for myself it's been so helpful to see. Oh, I see that good girl coming up here. Look at what she's trying to do and I've got a you know watching what she's doing and, um, but I'm aware of her yes and um, and I can see what's happening. 

23:01
So you're not fully invested, I guess. So then we move into the kind of the young adulthood, um years, and you know we still have those, those imprints and we're still moving towards the next stage would, which would be, you know, the stage of mother, of the mother, and I want to be really clear that mother can be absolutely of children. It can also be the grief of not having children. It can also be mothering a creative project, a business, a mission in the world, where you really you're devoting yourself, your love, your care, your attention to this particular being or or work. And when we move into those those stages, you know a beautiful kind of like blossoming of of a woman. 

23:58
Well, let's face it, it's not all, it's not all fun, it's one of the hardest jobs in the in the world, but and we can move in there and the, the mothering energy is one of it's unconditional love and you know loving, you know these little people or or pets, even really loving and giving yourself to them. So the two things I kind of want to talk about here is that the there's a flip side of that and that is getting stuck in the perfect mother, which is the you know, having to show up for everything, having to get it right, having you know, you know an extreme might be don't you, don't yell at your kids, you know? And so you're like repressing everything, trying to show up in this perfect way for for your kids and then feeling guilty when you, when you, slip out of that which we all do. I mean for me it's like it's on a daily basis, because it's not really it's not a real thing. 

25:05
No, it's not like, and you know, so we put on the mask. Then a perfect mother, yep. 

25:13 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Yeah, I know that mask. I had to move out of that one. 

25:17 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, and bringing in that, that self compassion for, for yourself during that time. So how do we see that? You know getting frozen in time. Later on, maybe your kids are growing up frozen in time. Later on, maybe your kids are growing up, you're kind of letting them go. Maybe there's elderly parents around or maybe you know in-laws or parents that are sick and and so that's where our mothering energy from is. 

25:47
Is is for when we move on from that, where we get stuck is feeling again it's kind of societal pressure that this particular mothering energy of unconditional love should be translated into our clients or our friends or our you know, even you know people that perhaps are not deserving of your love. 

26:16
So when we bring that into our clients or our work, it's not actually a healthy thing because we're not here to unconditionally. We might love them as people, but we're not there to give our whole heart out to our clients, because they're perfectly capable beings in themselves. They're not a child and um. So that's where the mothering energy can go on. It's always going to be there for your kids, but can get spread into other areas of our life where again we become depleted, we get burnt out, we're over caring in areas that perhaps are not fulfilling for us and also feeling like if I don't, then I'm not perfect. So that's where perfectionism, often at midlife, can also come from from that feeling like I need to show up, I need to be there for other people in a way that doesn't show my cracks, doesn't show my own vulnerabilities and my realness, my authenticity at this point in my life, and it's overstayed, its welcome. 

27:35 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, oh, that's so fascinating, that makes so much sense. 

27:41 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
Let's say, you know if you do work with or say even with friends, it comes. 

27:45
Where it really impacts is boundaries so when someone calls you and says I really need you, I, you know, I, I just had this really hard day, you're already tired and that mothering energy comes out and says, oh, I have to be there for them. I'm gonna, you know, invite you. You know your going to, you know, invite you. You know your listeners to say, you know, you know now, now you, that energy should be pulled back for yourself. Now it's midlife, it's your time now to be able to receive that for yourself. It's going to be there for your kids. But you know, where it goes wrong is where you know you have a perfectly capable 45 year old child living in your home like that. Or you know when they're perfectly capable, I mean that's an overly, that's the perfect. That's the mothering energy that now needs to, like, launch them. 

28:42 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Yeah, I hope that makes sense. No, it does, and it's like I can think of just a couple of clients that I have, or I've had in the past, who caring for siblings like adult siblings, has been like such a point of contention. They were the caretaker, right, like they were the oldest child, they took on this role, and that they feel like their baby sister, who is is 60 years old, is unable to take care of themselves and there's this very, very real, deep fear of but if I'm not there for her, she won't survive, like it's. It's it's deep and it's primal and it's you know, and at the end of the day they are adults and it's you know, and at the end of the day, they are adults. So so, yeah, I just recognize what you're saying and I love this frame that you're putting it in, because I've never been able to like seen it in this evolution. So this is really really helpful to see. So thank you. 

29:35 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
I love that example because that's that's such an old pattern of being the oldest in the family where really perhaps you know if the parents weren't functioning, it really was real that if you didn't look after your sibling they could have died, so and then that can get frozen in time. Now they're 60 to to shine that light on it for people to see like it's okay to. To shine that light on it for for people to see like it's okay to you know, allow them to be who they are now. Yeah. 

30:12 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
And there's complexity there, like I'm thinking of one client of the baby sister stayed in that baby role, right Like she, and you know what I mean. It wasn't as simple as like, oh, I'm just going to step, gonna step back. It was like the sister really did rely on my client because my client had continued to provide the support. So it's like she never got to step into adulthood and responsibility for herself and is now having to learn how to do it for the first time in her life. And right, and I mean, if not now, when? Right, I guess was really the you know where where my client and I figured out ways for her to like step back in ways that were compassionate she wasn't just like completely pulling the rug out underneath her but also to help her see that she's an adult who's capable of learning and stepping up for herself. And that is that is hard when you have people relying on you who you don't feel like have that capability. 

31:08 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
Oh, my goodness, it's so, so scary, and but I think just the fact that you know, when you shine the light on it in in this way, they, you know if they can see it. It's like they can't unsee it, like it there, there it is Again, it doesn't mean that we do any of this perfectly. You know, maybe there's times where she's able to step away and there's times where she doesn't, and and that's okay because there's nothing, there's no getting this right really in life, there's no. There's no getting it right. There's no getting it right, there's no getting it wrong. 

31:44
So, having that compassion for yourself that you know, wow, I did a really good job. I stepped in, I've been there and I didn't really fully realize that it's okay now for me to let go and live my life at this point in in life, because it's such an important part in in midlife that we have now to be able to step in and reap the rewards of all the hard work that we've done. And, you know, the other thing that I'm thinking of is, you know, I've had a lot of clients who have children or siblings, who have addictions of some sort, and our natural mothering energy and I think it'll always, always be there for our kids. And I can't you know, I can't even like speak to what that would be like. But you know, for for siblings, for example, just realizing that you can get locked into that caretaker role that it can, it's so draining, particularly if you live with a pain condition you can just imagine the draining of energy and the impact on the nervous system to be looking after a sibling with an addiction. 

32:56 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
And so I mean, there's so many ways of working with that. 

32:59 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
It's not black and white, but it's just another example. 

33:03 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
No, it's a great one and I just, I love that you bring in one. The messiness of it, or at least that's my word that I use I don't think you said that but right, like not getting it right, not getting it perfect, not needing it to be perfectly clean, and like here's this exact way we're going to go about this process, that it's like every relationship is going to have its own nuance, every living situation and phases of life, and like what's going on with your sibling, right? 

33:29
It's like there's no, there's no answer that you can just, you know, draw from someone else, because it's like it takes a self-evaluation, like what is going on for you and your relationship and your life and what works, and and, yeah, there's so much to bring in, yeah, yeah yeah, a lot of times it's about the willingness to like, bring in that complexity and sit with it, and sit with a tension of conflicting values and and to be with it all and take a messy action and evaluate if that was the right one and change paths or keep going down that path or whatever it might be. 

34:08 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
And one of the things I think you know once you've recognized the pattern, so you see it now and you can see, perhaps, the perfectionism that you, you, you talk a lot about in a, in a, really in a really great way. So we can see it and then, as we shift the things to really expect in that complexity is the bundle of emotions that are sitting behind the pattern. 

34:33 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, and this is what I always tell people ahead of time. 

34:36 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
like you know, you can expect you're going to feel a ton of guilt, you're going to be very afraid and the shame might come up too, because you're actually taking a stand for yourself, because we keep the pattern in place, sometimes for decades, so that we don't have to feel that guilt of setting boundaries. Maybe you've been told it's selfish to do that, or that your job is to care, give for other people, which is, you know, the the myth of a lot of you know women's roles in our society, that we're here to give to other people, and so when you start shifting, expect that you're going to start to feel that pot of emotion. 

35:21 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, it's usually opening up a Pandora's box. You're like, of course, you're feeling lots of things, you have just opened this all up, and I always compare it to it's like when there's that one you know super messy drawer, like closet. I don't know if anyone's read the berenstein bears, but I just always come up with this image of it's like the messy room where, like, papa bear opens up this closet and everything falls on top of him. Yeah, and it's like it takes doing that, though, to then put it all back organized right. It's like there's gotta be that, like you gotta get everything out, and and we can, with tools, make it so. 

35:59 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
It doesn't necessarily feel like it's drowning us, but yeah, I love that simply because you can imagine the strength that it takes and the pressure that it takes to keep that door closed like yes and that's where I can just like, feel my muscles like, and and how that affects what we're bracing already, perhaps with internal pain, and we're bracing against this door on. 

36:24
Well, on the outside, but it's actually like the inside yeah and and sometimes and again I see this a lot with women at midlife, where they're so tired of holding it all together they're so and so afraid that everything's gonna fall apart and sometimes things do need to fall apart, Exactly how you said. Sometimes things just need to feel so messy in order for us to be able to look at them and then take back what we want and leave the rest. 

37:00 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
It's such a brave move it really, really is. This is good. And one other piece I wanted to just bring in about the like different phases that you talked about. Is that, and I'm curious? I mean, maybe you don't see this, since you're, you know, working with women around a particular age, but I've had some clients who are they're young, like they're in their twenties, and what I've noticed is they're they're expecting themselves to be at like a phase in life where, like it's almost like you haven't, like there's things I haven't earned. You know enough work and put in enough work to like be at right. 

37:43
I'm like you can't expect yourself, especially with like entrepreneurs who are like really building something from the ground up, Right, it's like, well, you're 26. Like, of course, you haven't. You don't have this robust body of work and like the confidence and you know a decade of experience under your belt to be able to speak like this other person that you're comparing yourself to, who is 20 years, 30 years older than you, which I have to remind myself of this too all the time. You know I know I have, you know, listeners that are younger as well, that make sure that you're taking, or you're listening to, things that are relevant to where you are in your life and not expecting to jump ahead, because these aren't phases that we get to just skip through, right. Like you don't get to just go from childhood to like adulthood, Like you have to go through puberty. 

38:42
And yeah, I'm just seeing like some people being so hard on themselves. When I say some people, I really mean myself, too, being so hard on themselves, or I wish I had, I wish I could have told this to my 30 year old self. Right, I'm like just wait, chill out, You're okay. You have so much more to learn and grow and you will continue to learn and grow. Like you. You aren't there yet because it's not your time to be there yet. So I just that came up as you were talking. 

39:09 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
I think that is such an important point. You know these are phases and stages that you know if you want to use that more spiritual terminology of this divine feminine journey that we're on and the importance of locating ourselves along it, like where am I? No, we're never in the same spot, but we're. We're forward and we're back. But you know, and and again, for those 20 year olds, like locating themselves there and the grand scheme of their life, and and for the 40 year old to know that you know this, despite maybe, society's messages about getting old, older, you know that the way that women's lifespans are now, this is not the last stage you know, and now we're talking about you know, and, and now we're talking about you know, you've got maybe 30, 40, 50 years left. 

40:08
So, knowing that, you know, I look at it again, like you know, it's like the maiden, the mother. 

40:14
And then this you know, I I don't know if anybody else has called up, I'm sure you know it's been out there but this big expansive time of the queen- to be able to actually sit in your throne and look around and notice what you've done and where do you, you know, to be able to learn to, through your life experience, what you want to bring into this phase of your life? And often that's where I see women for healing, because they feel like it's time and really the last part is they, you know, in the spiritual journey would be the crone years where it's more about being and um, yeah, so this period of the queen, the queen years and I is. 

40:59
It's so important, as every stage is, and sometimes, when we we do rush ahead, you know, to be the adult, we sometimes have to circle back and become the child and the teenager and the rebel again, and and I see this a lot too. 

41:20
You know, jumping ahead into, perhaps, motherhood, which is nothing wrong if you, you know you're, you're ready for it, you want to have a child. But sometimes it's like, oh, I kind of missed my childhood myself. I think now I want to go back and do more of that, so like it's a never-ending spiral journey and it's not, it's not linear, and we carry all those pieces with us, hopefully getting rid of some of the the, the luggage that comes along with them. 

41:49 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, I love the way you said that. Oh, that's so beautiful. So how do people turn a midlife crisis into a midlife awakening? 

41:57 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, this is, this is it to when we feel and often the crisis comes with I can't hold it together anymore. And I don't. I might have to like. All I want to do is go to a desert island by myself, or I want to move, I want to leave my marriage. 

42:15
Sometimes that happens, but we feel like we're at, we can feel an urgency, like we're at a crisis point, and this is where we start unpacking and turn it into an awakening, so we start to actually come consciously into where we are on this journey, what has worked for us, what no longer works, and realizing that we have the right to let go of things that aren't working anymore. And this is where the awakening starts to happen. You have the right to set boundaries. You have the right, you know, to give up friendships that don't serve you, even if you've known them since kindergarten. 

43:06 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
them since kindergarten, yes, but I hear that a lot, but I've known them my whole life. Yeah, and and now. 

43:11 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
Maybe now it's a different life. Yes, um, marriages, you know. Sometimes they evolve into something really balanced and harmonious and beautiful, and sometimes they don't. And so when we awaken to ourselves and what we're really here for through our own desires, that's when the magic can start to well that's when the magic happens. 

43:34
That's when it happens, and even I just, you know, want to make sure that I make this point too is that if one of your listeners is listening and thinking, well, I don't even know what I want, I don't know what lights me up, I, I feel like I'm just kind of buried somewhere and I, I don't know what my desires are. That you're not alone. You're not alone. Often, the answer to that is there, it's there. 

44:05
It's just it's gotten buried and it's not uncommon to come to this place of confusion and crisis, thinking I don't even know, I don't know who I am. Okay, that's where we go, that's where we begin, because now the slate is like clean, you know. Now we can really build into what lights you up. Who do you want to be? Well, what's working, what's not working, and that I find really exciting yes, I love that. 

44:37
Yeah, go ahead yeah, no, and it just, you know, relating it back to, you know, pain and pain conditions, is that shifting patterns and releasing emotions and um and releasing fear can also have a, as you know, a huge impact, impact on your physical state of well-being. 

45:00 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Oh, hugely. And what I love about you said, for people who don't know what they what like them up, or even what they like or maybe like even if it's just a hobby, right, it's always this really fun opportunity. What I'll have my clients do is be like write down a list of activities that you could try. You don't even have to like know if you like them. It's like, maybe go on your local like meetup page or look at you know, I feel like libraries will have free at least ours does have like free, like events all the time of like crocheting for adults, or you know what I mean Like random things. It's like their pottery classes or their dance classes. 

45:32
Right, it's just like go, look and just at least start with a list and you can go and you can freaking hate the activity. But then you're like well, I guess I'm not about that and you have just discovered a little bit more about yourself. Right, you're like I guess I hate jazz. Okay, cool, ooh, but I love you know ballroom, dancing, you know whatever it's like. You get to just discover it, and the only way to discover that is to is to try new things, or even just watch a YouTube video. You know what I mean. It's like we have such access to things where we get to start on this like really safe level that I feel like was just so not available before. 

46:10 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
Exactly yes, and just noticing those little breadcrumbs that you know, oh, that looks interesting, or no? That's not for me exactly. It's all. 

46:21
It's all information and and you know I'm thinking of, you know one, one woman that I knew that just started taking pictures, that what saved her was going outside into her yard and starting to take pictures of birds. And she found it, she, she really enjoyed it and she followed that and followed that and and got a new camera eventually, and now her photography is is in magazines, it's, you know, shown all and her photographs are stunning. And she it came from just so burnt out and afraid and stressed to a whole world opened up to her of, like bird watchers. I love that. 

47:06 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
So you just don't know what the openings are, yes, and I love how it like turned into something so big and amazing for her, and it's also totally fine to be like and all I have is a bunch of crappy pictures on my phone of birds that no one ever sees, but I love them and it brings me so much joy, right like it gets to be anywhere along that spectrum totally, and the fact that that was that she wasn't looking for anything else oh, that's so cool. Unknown. 

47:35 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
So to her it didn't really matter. And then it just, she just kept going. 

47:39 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Yeah, that whole independent of the outcome thing, huh, and always, there's always really something to that and it's. It can be a challenging thing for sure when you when you want something right, that whole humaning. I have a client who I made it. I ended up making a shirt for her because I worked with her for a while and she would always just be like humaning is hard. 

48:02 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
So I made her a shirt that said like humaning is hard on it, like it is I love really. Yeah, it is, it really is. It's like adulting is adulting is hard it is. 

48:07 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
It's so hard. I love this Madeline I have. I could talk to you so much longer, but I um want to wrap this up and let people know where they can find you and learn more about your work. 

48:18 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
Well, probably the best way is through my website, mindful Living Now, or my YouTube channel. Is Woman Fully Alive, and that's my podcast as well. Is Woman Fully Alive, and that's my goal to help women feel as alive as possible in their bodies in this lifetime, in however that looks for them. 

48:40 - Dr. Andrea Moore (Host)
Beautiful and any last parting words that you want to offer. 

48:45 - Madeleine Ann Eames (Guest)
I think you know, listen, listen to the whispers inside of yourself, listen to those, those gentle nudges. You know, notice, you know, is that old? Is that an old pattern? And you know, be willing to look at yourself and also just realizing that so much of what we learned was never ours. You know, you didn't create this create this in yourself. 

49:10
You downloaded it. Create this in yourself. You downloaded it, and so just really listening to your, to your heart. Now I love that. Thank you so so much. Yeah, thanks for this conversation. I've really enjoyed like articulating this. Yeah, oh, I'm so glad, thank you.