From Paralysis to Joy with Colleen Jorgensen

00:00 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Welcome. Welcome, colleen. I am so excited to have you on today. 

00:04 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here. 

00:06 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yeah, why don't you first start out by just telling people a little bit about who you are and what? 

00:13 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
you do, sure. So my name is Colleen Jorgensen. I'm an osteopath a manual osteopath here in Montreal, canada. I specialize in helping people who live with chronic pain. It was kind of a long journey to get there. 

00:25
My first degree is in athletic therapy, so I started off working mostly with athletes and sports injuries and exercise rehabilitation, which I loved. Along that path I became a Pilates instructor and started to use the Pilates equipment and the Pilates approach as part of my rehab and I had my first of three spine surgeries on my 22nd birthday. So it was a big part of figuring out my own pain and my own getting back to function. That always helps me to. What do I incorporate with other people? 

00:57
That first surgery gave me 20 years of a very, very functional life. I was my strongest, most flexible that I've ever been. But 20 years later which brings us to 2010, I had a it was a complication. From that surgery I ended up with compression on the spinal cord and I found myself unable to move anything but my hands and forearms for several weeks at a time, over a period of a couple of years. And it really hit me when I was lying on my floor unable to do anything but stare at my ceiling and use breath and vibration with sound to help myself that I wasn't afraid because I understood what was happening in my body. 

01:35
But most of the people that I work with, fear is one of the biggest things that holds them back, and that fear is usually because they don't understand what's happening. 

01:43
And I find it fascinating that we we understand how to put gas in our car and change a tire, but we really don't know what to do when our body breaks down or when we show up with pain one day or when something becomes chronic. 

01:56
So it became my mission in that moment to build something that would get the word out there to people that there is so much that you can do, there's so much wisdom in your body and, yes, have guidance from a professional, but you live in your body 24 seven. So I. It took me another seven to eight years before my health was at a point that I could actually sit down at the computer and create what I had created without what I was building in my mind, and I finally launched an online pain care program a couple of years ago in 2020, called Dare to Heal, which I'm thrilled about because it's doing exactly that you know I see people one on one, but you can only see so many. When you're seeing one on one and being able to do things online, now you can reach so many more people and for those who find it challenging to leave the home, they have those tools right at their fingertips. So it's a really brief version of what got me here, and there's like a million questions I want to ask you from that. 

02:48 - Andrea Moore (Host)
So I love it so much. I'm going to kind of I want to start with the last thing you said. So, like this is the first thing my mind of so much yes to the, the, the group space and the online programs being able to access more people. I think that's just amazing and phenomenal that you've been able to translate what you've learned into it. 

03:04 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
Something beautiful that came out of COVID. You know, like when COVID first happened, people who lived in chronic pain and a lot of the professionals working chronic pain felt like shoot. If I can't see them in person, there's nothing I can do. If I can't do hands on, I can't help them. And that's not true. There's so much we can do and it actually is more empowering that we can give them the tools to help themselves, which I really love. That piece. 

03:27 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, do you have like a group that you do, like that you meet? Okay, yes, I do, I thought so and yeah, I think the other piece about that is I find, in like the group that I have to, it's like the amount of healing that happened just from people witnessing and observing others. I don't know about you, but that really surprised me, like I don't know if you went into it knowing that was going to happen, like I had been in group spaces but I just did not realize the extent of the power of the group. 

03:57 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
Yeah, I agree, and I think there was even a little bit of hesitation. That, and from some of the people as well. If I go into a group with other people in chronic pain, are they just going to bring me down? Is everyone just going to be complaining? And it's not that. It's quite the opposite that people get inspired by each other. People lift each other up. People learn from what works for you. Oh, I've never tried that, let me give it a shot. People learn from hearing I've got bad days, but then I have good days too. It reminds us that, okay, we always get through it. Things are always changing and evolving, so even on the worst days I can, I'm reminded when I see other people that, okay, I'm going to have a good day again. So, yeah, it's been really inspirational to see that, and a lot of friendships have built too over it, which is lovely. 

04:42 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, I know I'm like. One of my group members are like oh yeah. 

04:45
I met with you know so and so, and I was like, oh my gosh, I love that these connections are happening outside of the group. Anyways, that's what it's. Touch on that, because I think that was really surprising to me and I think the fear that you speak about is really common and that has not been the case in my group at all either. I feel like there are a lot of groups like I have had people not in my group because I don't know if anyone has had the courage to join another group because of their experience. But I've had individual clients with that experience. I have been in some online pain groups that are very much bringing each other down, or like the crab that tries to climb out of the pot and like everyone pulls them down. It's like you just witnessed that happening in some of these online groups and it's it's devastating. 

05:25
It's like the identity is you must stay in pain, and if you are doing anything to help yourself, we're going to like drag you down, but so I just want to speak to that of like. There are groups, colleagues, is not like that. Mine is not like that. It is so about empowering people to live their best life so beautiful. So what I actually wanted to go back to, though, in your story is the fact that you had those weeks where you were unable to to move. 

05:52 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
Yeah, it was quite something, that is. 

05:56 - Andrea Moore (Host)
I mean, yeah, massive. And what you said really spoke to me, because I had a very similar experience just on a not as dramatic level by any means of what after my car accident, when I had post concussive syndrome. There was a lot of symptoms, there were a lot of thoughts and feelings about my symptoms, but I feel like the fear piece, or even when I've had other injuries as well. So it was like I had post concussive syndrome but I've also just injured myself doing dumb things and had super bad pain when I was pregnant, like totally pretty much my fault. We won't even go into that story. I've told it before in the podcast, right where it's like I really did injure myself or I've had times where I have, you know, lifted far too much, really known it and just done it anyways and, you know, ended up on the floor and back pain kind of thing, but it's just not been like a big deal. Yep, because I understand it Exactly and that's like well, that's the socks. 

06:52
I don't want to be stuck on the floor right now and not being able to move, but, like, give it a day and it'll be fine. You know what I mean? It's like you just made it through it, so what? I'm curious if there were any thoughts at the time, Like what were their thoughts, were their actions or what was it that got you through those weeks? 

07:13 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
Yeah, it's hard to even describe Like. Prior to that, I had already had a back surgery. I had had five years of chronic neuropathic pain down both legs and chronic back pain, the whole thing. So I knew pain when something is compressing your spinal cord. I don't even have the words. It's like the essence of who I was as a person was being invaded. You know, and I so, and that's. I wish I had better words because it doesn't quite capture it. 

07:40
But part of what I learned from is that, again, when it comes to that fear, because I understood, I knew that I wasn't paralyzed. I knew that I was going to walk again. I knew that I would get out of this somehow. I didn't know when or how long it would be and all of that but I knew that I also had to try to move and so much of what holds people back from getting well, as you and I know, is that fear of movement, because people are afraid to do the wrong thing and make it worse. So one of the things that I really learned in that moment, like literally all I could do was this but I did that for hours a day until I could build on that and I started to be able to unfold my elbow and then eventually I can lift my arm a little bit For listeners. 

08:21 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Colleen is just circling her wrist. 

08:23 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
No, it's okay. 

08:23 - Andrea Moore (Host)
No, because it's so hard when you have video, you're looking at yourself and you're like this too, but Colleen was just circling her wrist and then slowly making the motion bigger. Sorry, go on. No, thank you for clarifying. 

08:33 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
So I have a saying in my group work with what's working. We so often try to fix what we think is broken, but there's great value in moving what already moves well. We don't always have to like burst through the barrier and push through the awful pain to get to the other side of it. Quite the opposite, actually. And sometimes when you just embrace what you can do and capitalize on that, you build on that. So that was a big part of it for me. I didn't have a phone yet at that time in my life. I couldn't turn on a television or listen to radio because the sound like it was all just too much. So I literally just looked at my ceiling and I also couldn't reach myself to treat myself, which any injury I've ever had in my life. I always work on myself as much as I can. So without those tools, what did I have was my breath, and I had been using breath for I guess over a decade at that point with exercise. But now I was using breath as my survival tool. It was what got me through and it was actually my one and only treatment. I say one and only. 

09:40
The second thing I started to use was creating sound with my voice. It's like I was trying to touch that part of my spinal cord by creating vibration and I couldn't get my hands on that part to help myself. But I could actually vibrate the area from the inside and, interestingly, any time prior to that that I had gone to a yoga class. I didn't like the part of yoga where we chanted. It made me uncomfortable. I didn't understand the why behind it. Now, since that experience, it's one of my favorite parts, because when you're in a group and everybody's chanting together, the vibration it creates inside of us to me now is like oh, I'm getting like a treatment here. 

10:19 - Andrea Moore (Host)
It's fantastic. 

10:21 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
So I honestly thought, other than that it was really just getting through each moment, and I think that was part of the key. I wasn't trying to project how long am I going to be like this, what am I going to do? How am I ever going to get back to work? I just didn't go there. I was just surviving each moment and that present moment awareness. That was the beginning of my journey with present moment awareness and it it's helped tremendously on so many levels in life Not just with pain, but on so many levels with life to be able to just be in this moment. 

10:52
Deal with what you're dealing with right now, except what's happening right now, knowing that it will change. You don't have a crystal ball. You can't predict how or when maybe it's going to change, but it will change because we are bioplastic beings and we have this incredible capacity to heal and I, because of the professions that I mean, I understood that my body is gonna figure it out. I need to help it along somehow, but it's got the tools and I trusted that that is so incredibly powerful and I love that concept of really working with what works. 

11:25
I think this is. 

11:27 - Andrea Moore (Host)
So working with what's working. 

11:28 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
Sorry, I said no, no, that, no, no. 

11:30 - Andrea Moore (Host)
But it's, it's so powerful because I know we, as as many listeners, are likely perfectionists, right, we just hard-bun like, oh my goodness, I can't do this thing without allowing ourselves to Build up to it so often. It's something we can build up to if we just meet our set, as my saying is always like meet yourself when you are, absolutely right and then, like the whole the desire of where you want to go. But you have to always first meet yourself where you are. 

11:59 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
And I just had one more thing, andrea, from from that little part I had prior to that. So at this point I was 40 years old. So, for you know, a Good portion of my life I had been that no pain, no gain attitude, because it was the 80s. That's what we did, right, we all had that no pain, no gain attitude and it had served me well For any injury I did have. The stronger I got, the more flexible I got, the more I did, the better I got. Now I found myself in a position where the more I tried to do, the more I set myself back, and that was a huge lesson. And, and that lesson Is another one that has taken me into this chronic pain space in a very different way than I would have not having gone through that experience. 

12:42 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, oh, man, and I feel like there's so much I want to say on that too, because I think the fact that you were able to have the flexibility and maybe took you some time to get there, it did. Yes, many of wait. This isn't working Absolutely. What I think I see happen Are people Trying to perfect what's the right way to be so I can avoid all of these things. Right, oh, this person, no, all this no pain, no gain didn't work for Colleen, so therefore I'm never gonna push myself Right. It's like they're trying to troubleshoot things that haven't happened yet or may never be a problem for them, and it is. It's such a challenging thing when there's such an abundance of information now and abundance of getting to hear these people you know everyone's story and Things like that to be able to pick and choose. I'm like what is right for me right now, because I'm kind of re-entering a phase of like, not like a push through, like. I feel like I went way too on the opposite end of the spectrum of like. 

13:50
Oh, I have to rest my body is you know what I mean it was like, and I needed that for some time, like after my pregnancy I needed that like just Nuzzle time with my baby, who is now almost seven years old. I stopped doing CrossFit. I like just went so Easy and I needed that. And now, because I've given myself that rest, I'm like I get to push again and, and I know probably a little bit of a better balance now. Yeah, I need to change it. I'm gonna trust that my body is just gonna let me know, yeah, right, that I don't need to be like oh wait, did I do too much today? Is this gonna be too much? Is this gonna burn me out? 

14:25 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
right, it's like I don't know, I'll find out. Right, and it's like you, just right, that's information. And so you get curious and say, okay, let me adapt. 

14:34 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yeah, I think we're trying to constantly find this balance of like if I stay Perfectly in balance and do everything right, then I will never experience an injury and I will never get burned out and I will never feel tired and I will never feel uncomfortable. And it's like this just doesn't work. It's not human and you can't troubleshoot for that, and in fact, that type of like anxiety around it will just make you feel like crap. 

14:55 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
I mean it just keeps you in your stress response, which is not the place you're gonna be able to heal from right. Exactly, and I love what you just shared as an example that what you needed at one point in your life Changed and evolved, because we as humans are constantly changing and evolving and our bodies are constantly changing and evolving. So even sometimes what you did on Monday is not what's gonna help you on Tuesday. You know, and people, people like to have that recipe, that magic bullet or that prescription and I get it. I so get it. 

15:26
But our bodies are too complex. Pain is too complex. It's not as simple as that. So to me, part of the Best way for people to learn how to help themselves is to learn to listen to the messages of their body, because our body is Constantly giving us feedback and if we can figure out ourselves which might take some guidance at first, but over time, if we can ourselves learn how to Understand what the body is asking for, then you're not at the mercy of waiting until that next appointment with the doctor or the next appointment with your Osteopath or your whoever it is that you see still go to them for that extra support. Wonderful, fantastic, reliant on them to be able to take that next step forward. And that's huge, because so many people are frozen in place until they get that permission from the expert. And I'm not saying please surround yourself with a team of experts, that's a part of it, but also learn how you can help yourself, because you're the only one that's in your body 24 seven. 

16:25 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Oh my gosh, exactly and that had her that you just pointed out of like waiting until the next appointment. Oh my, I can't tell you how many like consults I've had. Somebody who reaches out, they're like interested in this type of work, and then they're like, well, I have an appointment in like two months, I'm gonna see what they say, and I'm just like like exactly, I just had someone yesterday. 

16:46 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
Yeah, he's got sciatic pain after pregnancy. And you know, I said why don't you come back for a session? Let's see what we can do? And she says, well, I'm going for an MRI in a few months. I'm gonna wait till you get those results. Oh, why would you wait? What a shame. 

17:01 - Andrea Moore (Host)
I know it's so frustrating. 

17:01 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
I agree, while we wait for those results. But I get it, you know, because once again most people don't understand how the body works. So you feel 100% reliant on the people who do understand how the body works. 

17:14 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, it's one thing when you, you know we are so privileged to have so much information and understanding about how the body works right. Like you are an osteopath, I believe that, as a doctorate or something a very high type of like, I feel like it's a little bit of a different. Is that DO or? 

17:31 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
what it's a DO. Yeah, it's a five year post grad program here. Okay. 

17:35 - Andrea Moore (Host)
It's a lot of freaking education. It's a lot of education Like. 

17:38
I have my doctorate in physical therapy, like and I wanna highlight this because I do see I've seen a couple of physical therapists I'm just pointing at physical therapists and stuff tends to be the circle I hang out in that forget how much they know and that people don't know what they know and kind of like will be kind of hard on people of oh, why are you resting? That you should know you could just work through this or you can just do these exercises and I'm like these are not intuitive exercises, that you know how to do them because you've been educated in it. Right. And so it's gotta be this balance of listening to your body, and sometimes your body's guidance is to seek out support, yes, and then the support you receive. What I always say, it's like you run it through your body's guidance of does this feel right? Right, and sometimes that might mean okay, let's say, this physical therapist told me to do these exercises. 

18:35
I'm not sure, Like I'm not, my body's not really clear. It's like you just might do the exercises, give three to five sessions and just see how does your body respond. And it's like absolutely. And so it's not. The listening to your body, I think, is tricky, because that's like, so my message too, it's like listen to the messages your body's sending, and sometimes our body does not Like. Let's use sciatica as an example, which is a really. I hate the term sciatica so much. It's just a symptom. 

19:07
Because it's literally just means your sciatic nerve is pissed off and tells you nothing about why, and the treatment for it can vary wildly depending on what causes it. But it's like you see so many people that are like, oh, I just feel so good when I like bend forward, when in fact actually it's gonna be like extensions that are gonna make you feel better, right, but so it's like you can't always trust your body. However, in most of those cases, if people knew how to listen to their body and knew how to assess and weren't just assessing in the very moment, they would realize that the bending forward actually does exacerbate their symptoms. It's just that so often we don't carry out the listening to our body past the like here and now it's also like, oh, if I bend forward and I stretch that out, it temporarily feels good. 

19:55 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
I also have to listen. What happens when I get? 

19:57 - Andrea Moore (Host)
up and people forget to like. Ask it then too. 

20:00 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
Yep, and you just highlighted something too that I just flew out of my head. But I wanted to highlight what you just said because it was so important that this is the trickiest part of chronic pain that when you've been living with pain that's hung around for a while, the messages you get from your body are not usually correct because, your system has become hyper vigilant and overprotective, like a helicopter parent who's afraid to let you out of the house because you might have a bad experience. 

20:27
So there is a lot of that trial and error and some guidance from someone who knows how, knows what the messages really are, trying to say, to help you at first, so that you can once again get to that place where you can fully trust the messages from your body. But even, like you said, even in that scenario where you've been in chronic pain and maybe not all the messages are correct, sometimes the body will warn us of threat when there isn't really something to be worried about. That's a big piece. However, even then, like you say, there will be messages that if you really tune in to getting to the subtleties of the messages, you'll get some answers. Maybe not all the answers, maybe not the perfect answer, but it will be information that you can use to inform your next choice. 

21:12 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, oh, I love you because I feel like we speak such a similar language. Right, I'm always like it's just more data, like you just have to gather data and be like. And then what do I do with this new piece of data that I've received? 

21:25 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
And that judgment piece, so not to judge the data, that it's not positive or negative, even if you did something and it sends you into this huge flare up of pain. Great information how can I use that moving forward, rather than getting so frustrated and angry that, oh my God, I've taken five step backwards, which I understand. I truly, truly get it. I'm in a flare right now and some moments are hard to not just go into that frustration, but then I just realized no, this is just really good information for me for next time when I'm making my choices. 

21:55 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, I'm a big fan of having like a two minute temper tantrum. 

21:58 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
I'm like corn flakes, and then it's done Exactly, and then moved through it. 

22:03 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Okay, temper tantrum, it's frustrating, like it sucks, and then, okay, what's the next step? Yeah, and then the other piece I wanted to highlight that you're talking about. That I think is really important because I love your background as an osteopath, as a manual therapist and exercise also a lot of background and exercise rehabilitation is, I think, one thing I see and I'm curious if it's right, we all are in like our little bubble. So I'm like, is this just the bubble that I get presented and this isn't as common of a thing? Or I'm curious if you see this too. 

22:34
Is that in the mind body space there is an, I think, an overemphasis on oh, there's nothing wrong physically, like I understand the original intent of that message because it is true, for some people with chronic pain, there really isn't anything wrong physically. They truly are safe to do any movement. However, what happens when you're somebody who's been in that space and then maybe you actually do have something that could benefit from a physical intervention? I find it is. It runs the risk of making people think that, oh my god, well, but if it is physical, then this is bad, like shit has gone down where I'm like physical stuff is so much easier to treat Something that is purely physical like an ankle spree or like I mean even sciatic pain in so many cases I'm like, please, like it's a piece of cake, I get bored with it. That's just why I like to go into the more complex mind, like this side of this, psychological things, but like I'm like a tight muscle that you get to roll out and feel better, like there's so much you can do. 

23:35
I think there is this, this the physical aspect gets missed so much, or people think that it's something has gone wrong if, like, a muscle is tight or they need to stretch. I don't know. I'm curious if you see this, I see you, I'm so glad you're bringing it up. 

23:50 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
I think it's one of those things that we've got this great new information about, our new understanding of how pain works and how much the nervous system, the neuroimmune system, is involved in pain and that's huge. It has really changed the way we treat pain. It's, to me, really put the power into the hands of the person who's living with pain Fantastic. And it's given us so many more tools than just working on the physical. But we've kind of thrown the baby out with the bathwater on this one, in my opinion, that so many times we're we're immediately jumping to the conclusion that it's only a sensitive nervous system issue and maybe not always doing our due diligence to make sure that okay. Well, sometimes there actually is a mechanical thing that we need to address as well. And if I could share an example, oh please. 

24:34
A few months ago I had, within the span of two weeks, I had three new patients. They were all women between the ages of 25 and 45. All three had had some sort of pelvic cancer in their past that they had had treated for and were cancer free at this point, and all three were consulting me because they all of a sudden had this terrible hip pain. So all three came in quite similar presentations. Of course you always have to, at the back of your mind, wonder is the cancer back? You have to, you have to rule that out. And in one of the cases there was a new cancer. In two of the cases it was a sensitized nervous system where you know they did something that tweaked the hip a little bit, but then the fear kicks in because the last time they had that kind of pain they did have cancer. And in those two situations it was a sensitive nervous system that became overprotective. 

25:28
But if I hadn't listened to my guts and listened really to the patient and the nuances of what she was sharing with me, I would not have encouraged her. We've even been taught now to discourage people from going for imaging and I get it. I really do understand it. I'm not saying we should never do that. There are certain cases where you know the fear is driving people and we can see that and we see that there's no red flags. I understand it. But I, like you, think that we just need to be careful that there still are some situations where there is a physical thing that needs to be taken care of. There are still people who do better with a surgery sometimes and we can do both we can. We can let people have that physical intervention and also work on the nervous system piece so that it gives them the best chance possible of recovering well from whatever intervention they might actually need. 

26:17 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, oh my gosh, 100% yes to all of this. I think this is so important and I'm so glad this came up and the both, and it's not either, or because, even if it is physical, you're still have to dress. 

26:32 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
the nervous system, the nervous system? 

26:34 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, and how you feel about this, a surgery, or how you feel about the treatment, or how you feel about doing exercises. Can you even are you, you know, maybe someone who's in so much apathy or depression that you can't actually do the prescribed exercises that are right for you, it's just cannot be or someone who is so I got to push through all pain. So therefore, you know, like you, maybe you are someone who needs to be resting and doing some more rehab type exercise. It's right, it's like it's so. It's so intertwined it's impossible to separate out. It's never either, or one or the other. 

27:07 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
It was almost never we shouldn't say never or always in the human body. 

27:10
But it almost never, just one or the other. And can I ask you along the same lines? So I also teach yoga, pilates. So, maddox, so in the movement space, again, with our new understanding of pain, there's also this, this new way of thinking or speaking that suggests posture and alignment don't matter at all. And to me that's again. We're not. We're taking the new science, but we're not putting it together with the rest of the information that we understand. So to me, posture and alignment still matter. They're just not the be all, end all, they're not the one and only thing that matter. But if chronic poor posture or a chronic misalignment issue can be no ceceptive, meaning that it can send threat signals to your system which can be enough over time to sensitize your nervous system. So I don't know if you're seeing that same thing as well. 

28:01 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yeah, I think now that I've kind of moved, I think I saw a lot more when I was a little more in like hands and physical therapy world and but like the hanging out with physical therapy therapist in the mind, body space yes, I 100% know that exists and there's just such a oh no, you know you shouldn't be able to move in any way and this just shouldn't hurt and it's like no, I mean, especially if you're bringing in weights or exercise, or it's like you're trying to back squat a lot like yeah, of course your posture matters and your how your squatting matters 100%. Should you be able to like do weird, all kinds of weird postures with your body, to like pick up something in an awkward position? Yeah, absolutely Right, it's. I had one guy this is totally opposite end of the spectrum he was like she was so much fun this is when I was like working more from the movement perspective. 

28:49
He was a personal trainer and this guy he was probably like 28, walked like a robot, like every like he was one of those people where it's like if he went to bend down, it was like stack everything, move you know down, squat down, perfectly aligned, could stand up, and it's like he took it to the extreme and guess what, he had pain and he couldn't figure out why and I'm like it's because you're holding yourself and so much tension at all times, right, so like I would make him do all these like weird, like like wave, like movements and more like an animalistic movements and he really did not like it. 

29:23 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
I'm any ways but right. 

29:25 - Andrea Moore (Host)
So it's like that's like you could always go extreme, but you're so right as I'm seeing the extreme and also of a total like lack of paying attention to that and I actually had a call them out in here. I had Schuben are you familiar with Dr Schuben are on this podcast and he said something because I had a. I worked with hyper mobility a lot when I was a physical therapist and strength training is so crucially important and he basically made the argument which I didn't agree with at all and I wish I had like argue back a little bit more, but I feel like it was embedded in something else and I just, yeah, I don't know, I didn't have the guts, honestly. 

30:03 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
He's actually not intimidating. 

30:04 - Andrea Moore (Host)
He's super nice, I'm just easily intimidated. Sometimes. On a podcast he's basically saying that if you take care of the nervous system, then people with hyper mobility basically don't need to strength train and it's not normal for them to have pain. And I was like that is so inaccurate on so many levels and I'm like maybe in like a weird sense, you could do so much work with your system that I'm like I guess maybe you could bring down pain levels. But I'm like the amount of work that would take, I think on an inner work level and like a mental load level, I think would create more issues. But like, even if it could work, I'm like why not just spend that energy doing what I know is good for our body, which is moving, and get it stronger, right? 

30:52
like to me, it's just the wrong place to spend your energy, like you only want to focus on things so much you don't want to spend your life and inner work. So it's like, if you can go, just strengthen and that takes care of your pain. I always feel like that's the better route than having to do inner work, because it's like a bang for your buck. 

31:08 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
You don't even. It's like you get to do both, and I love the combination is always most powerful, right, it really is. 

31:15 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Oh, this is so good, and this is so not where we were originally intended to go. 

31:18 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
So I want to bring it back to where, like I wanted to bring you on, but I love that we went here because this is like I did too. 

31:25 - Andrea Moore (Host)
I've had like such like a pent up, like need to talk about this, and I was like same. I love the things where we wanted to go and I think you have so much beautiful experience and can speak to you on such a personal level is bringing in joy and living life even with pain. 

31:41 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
Yeah, to me it's one of the I guess one of the things that makes me the most sad when I see people who have the strong belief that only once they I'm using air quotes fix their pain, will they do the things that make them happy, or will they even consider joy. And it breaks my heart because not only, not only is it okay to seek out joy and happiness while you're living in pain, but it's essential. It will help you get through when we experience joy, when we do things that make us happy, and it also makes us the most powerful pain killing. Chemicals and hormones endorphins, dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin these are things that you would normally want to take in a pill form if you're living with pain and then you have all the side effects to deal with. But experiencing joy allows your system to release that naturally, and I would love to. If I could share a story from one of my participants in my pain care group and she wanted me to share the story because it changed her trajectory, with pain so much to just embrace joy, and she was shocked at what a difference that it made. Is that okay? Absolutely so. 

32:52
When I was putting that first pain care program together, I was trying to think of how to sign off on the emails that I keep in touch with them and it's ridiculous how much time and energy and emotion I spent deciding is it okay for me to sign off with seek joy. And I knew all the backstory and the science of why I was going to do that. But I could also see how it may come off as insensitive. Here I am bringing in this group of people who are struggling with complex, chronic pain issues and I'm signing off my emails seek joy. Are they going to take it like I'm just this fluffy hippie that thinks if you just put a smile on, your pain is going to go away? I decided to do it and a few weeks into the program, one of the participants she shared with she shared in the group. She said you know, I have to tell you I was really mad at you when I first saw your emails. And she shared that she felt anger, frustration, betrayal, disbelief, self pity, that she would see seek joy. And she said I would roll my eyes and I would like shake my head and I'm like impossible. You cannot be living in the kind of pain I'm living and seek joy. It's ridiculous and I can't believe that Colleen is saying this, and she and I had a very similar surgery with the same surgeon and we had similar complications after the surgery. So before being part of my pain program I had treated her as a patient in osteopathy, so we had bonded. She's also platyzed and stronger, so we bonded over many things, but we particularly bonded over our experience. So she shared with me that. 

34:23
You know, here I was and I'm thinking okay, so Colleen's doing well after her surgery. All of a sudden, and she's living her best life and I'm really struggling. And she even shared that she was at the point where her pain was so challenging that she didn't see the point in living life anymore, that she just didn't see the point of going on. And then she said there was a few weeks into the program she's a foodie. She bought some chocolate and instead of chewing it she just let it melt in her mouth. And she said I really savored the chocolate and all of a sudden I found myself experiencing joy and I got it. She said it was one of my worst pain days, but I was feeling joy and I realized, oh my God, they can coexist. 

35:07
So then she started to seek joy, meaning she's tried to look for glimmers in her day, things that made her smile, and eventually and she wants people to know that it wasn't overnight, that it's a work in progress and she's still evolving with it. But now that she's opened herself up to the possibility, she says joy just finds me. It's everywhere now and I can't tell you the difference of seeing what she went from when she used to consult with me. I don't think I ever saw her smile. She was always frowning and so serious with her teaching, so serious about life. 

35:42
And now when you see her, she's just. She literally is radiating joy and she just brings you along with her. And it sounds like a small thing, but it's huge. It has trickled into she even shares that. It's trickled into all of her big life choices that if she's got to make a decision, whether it's in her professional life or her personal life, she'll pause and she'll say does this or will this bring me joy? And if the answer is no, she says I just say no, thank you, and I don't explain and I feel so good about my decision. I just think about the ripple effect of just being open to experiencing and seeking joy, how much her life has changed and how much her experience with her pain has changed. 

36:21 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Wow, that is so powerful. 

36:24 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
It really is, and I want people listening to understand we're really not saying just slap a smile on your face and all your pain is going to go away. That's not what this is. But putting your life on hold until your pain is gone actually holds you in pain for longer, whereas if you let yourself, maybe at first you have to seek out those moments. You have to enhance the moments a little bit from the outside, because it's hard, because you're in pain. You will end up getting through your pain quicker. And or sometimes we can just use joy as a distraction. And if you've been living in pain for a really long time, I'm of the opinion that it's really okay to sometimes use distract. Not only okay. Sometimes it's necessary to just do something put on a romcom, laugh and cry happy tears and be distracted for two hours, and that's great. 

37:13 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Oh, my goodness, yes, yes, yes. And I love in that story how she started with being triggered by your message, because I'm sure, as you talk about too, it's just being triggered, is just, oh, there's so much gold. 

37:28 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
I've got to the point where I love being triggered. 

37:31 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Now it's like. It's like the both, it's so the both. And I'm like fuck, I'm so raging hot and I'm like ah, and then I'm like ooh what's going to come out of this one? 

37:42 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
It's like this is going to be something good because there's so much gold. 

37:46 - Andrea Moore (Host)
when we are triggered up, like when something really rubs you the wrong way or irritates you and just like grinds your system. 

37:53 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
It's getting to the. Why is so valuable? 

37:57 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, and I love that she just got to experiment. Just like chocolate, like eating chocolate, like it's so accessible. 

38:03 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
That's what she said, something so simple. She realized too in that moment it doesn't have to be this big, huge thing. It can be really simple, simple moments, simple pleasures. And can I share something else that I think is really important when we talk about joy or even just anything positive, it's Rick Hansen who has that saying that our negative experiences stick to us like Velcro and our positive experiences slide off like Teflon. 

38:29
And that was for a survival reason. We needed to remember the bad things so that we didn't get killed back in the day. But now we don't need that so much, but that's still our biology. So when you experience joy or you do something that feels good, or you have a moment where you don't have pain or your pain is more manageable, we need to pause for a moment and celebrate it. And there are three ways in particular that can help you to Velcro it or tattoo it on your nervous system. One is to say it out loud and share it with somebody else. Two is to write it down so you can refer back to it. And three is to relive it like you're watching a movie of it happening. So I encourage you not just to have that moment of joy, but relive it and kind of solidify it, so that your system remembers that you can feel joy, so that you will feel joy again. 

39:18 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, oh, I talk about this too. It's like it takes the nervous system like a split second to wire in a message of danger or threat or negative emotion, and it takes a full 10 seconds for it to register. 

39:31 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
I do know that when you're. 

39:34 - Andrea Moore (Host)
I heard it somewhere and I'm like I really feel like I need to find this study. I heard it from Dr Valerie Rain, whom I trust I keep me actually meaning to ask her. 

39:42
I was like I should be like, do you have a reference point? But it's worked really well. I've implemented it and what I love all the suggestions you use and I'm just going to offer one more is I think so often if you're someone who notices that joy can almost feel threatening in your system, it's almost like right, you get the like oh gosh, when's the other shoe going to drop? Type feeling. Or it's like, oh, but when's my pain? Right that if it just feels like a threat. Well, all often offer is wiring in safety to that experience of joy as you're feeling it. And my go to is like cross your arms over, like you're giving yourself a hug, like rub your arms up and down, like that soothing, or you can squeeze or you can tap and just look around and just feel your feet on the ground, like see the safety all in your room and you can be like I am safe to feel this joy and then like let it radiate out and have this big smile on your face and just really feel into it. 

40:44 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
Yes, yes, yes, Thank you for adding that in absolutely. 

40:49 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, it's so powerful. And I think the other thing with joy is it can feel like this really At least when I hear the word joy, I do think big right, and again I'm going to come back to hear that chocolate experience of it doesn't have to be this massive. 

41:01
It's just this simple, like ah, like that felt warm and good and just nourishing. And so if joy feels, like if there were joy feels for anybody listening because I know it did for me like I feel, like I had a lot of big hangups with the word joy. 

41:16 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
Because it just felt so big it was unattainable. 

41:19 - Andrea Moore (Host)
And then it's like just go with. Oh, that felt nourishing, that felt warm, that felt good, that felt like what's yeah Anything that brings you. 

41:27 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
Just before we started today, I put flowers right in front of me and just that, like as I, just I see them out of the corner of my eye and I just feel warm inside when I see that and it just makes a little difference. You know, it can be the small little things. 

41:40 - Andrea Moore (Host)
What is that little thing I'm trying to think of? Who talked about this? But it's like, even if you're going to have a quick snack or maybe you're not making yourself a full meal to still, like, set it on. Maybe you have nice China, you know, or put it on something special, have like a pretty napkin, or I don't have a beautiful mug to drink tea out. Of. It's just these little things that just give you that like throughout the day. 

42:00 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
Agreed. One of my strategies when I'm having my worst days is I'll make sure to spend a little more time on choosing my clothes that day, Even though I might want to just put on a big baggy sweatshirt that's dark in color and just hide away and disappear. I won't let myself. I'll purposely choose color or something that's got a fashion flare or something, Because I'm trying to use that outside influence to spark a little something on the inside, you know. 

42:27 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yeah, absolutely. I love that. I think there's so much about like our external environment that can so positively influence our internal environment. 

42:37 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
And having said that, I was just reading, I'm still reading, I haven't finished it yet, but I'm reading Kelly McAuguinal's the Joy of Movement and I like how she was pointing out in there that joy, true joy, comes from within, that we all have it and our capacity to feel it doesn't rely on the external factors, doesn't rely on mood, and so it's not influenced by even something as big as chronic pain. And we can use the outside glimmers, if you want to use Deb Dana's term something from the outside to remind you or allow you to tap into what's already within. But we do have that internal capacity to be at peace and feel joy or comfort or happiness, however you want to refer to it. And if you don't feel ready yet to tap into that, then yeah, use the stuff on the outside to enhance it a little bit, to make it more available to you. That's great. 

43:31 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, and I love that you brought this piece in, because I so agree to having the internal capacity, and I think again, this is where it's like people will take a message and use it against themselves, right, at least I'm really good at that and I think it again. I've noticed for myself and I've seen people with the same thought pattern of well, I shouldn't have to do that to feel joy. 

43:54
I should be able to cultivate it for myself and for me, my biggest question is what's my ability to influence the external that creates the joy? So I mean, this is probably like last year or whatever, something like that. I had realized I had this really weird thought that if I needed to put on makeup to feel good, that I'm like oh, that's so wrong. Right, it's like I'm not a good feminist and like I shouldn't have to do that and I was like beating myself up for wanting to wear makeup at times. But I also noticed that whenever I like went all out and got like super colorful I shadow, or even honestly just did like a really simple face like I have on now, I'm like I just feel better. Like it's, it takes me three minutes to put on what I'm wearing right now. Yep, and if it, that three minutes Gives me, like every time I look in the mirror, like the ability to just like smile at myself Easier to I'm having this conversation from having to stare at myself the whole time Like you know what I mean. 

45:02
Like it's, I'm like right in my own face Like why wouldn't I do that? Like why did I make? 

45:08
that wrong, and so I just started wearing makeup, all like a whole lot more than I was. You know, even if I was just going to do a quick trip and I was like, I just feel like more of like a human and more of like an adult and I just feel more Responsible and I just feel like like same thing if I just put on even I mean, this is like an athletic, like sweats, you know, but it's like a nicer one, it's not my big baggy sweatshirt right it's just like those little things. 

45:31
It's like I don't make it wrong to use those Absolutely. It just gives you that access like why, why? Why do we do that to ourselves? 

45:40 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
I don't know, but we really do. Judgment is strong in our society, but you did the same thing as you or similar thing as you. You know, there are periods when sleep is elusive to me and then I'll get really dark circles. And when I see those dark circles to me, it projects it doesn't project health. And so, like you, I will use concealer to hide those dark circles for myself, not because I'm trying to make myself look a certain way to the world, but because I don't like to see, looking back in the mirror, something that's not projecting health to me. And yeah, so I feel really okay with that. 

46:18 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yeah, I love that and yeah, I don't know why we've made it wrong, and just like it wouldn't be wrong for somebody who chooses not to wear makeup and doesn't really care and has no desire to put it on and it's like you get to do that right, it's just like what makes you just feel good and like what's? There's so much in healing work. There's a lot of hard, there's a lot of a lot of hard. So deep dark places, at least that I like to go. 

46:45
I mean like that, that really lead to this true healing, and why not give yourself easy when you can have it? 

46:52 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
I could not agree more. It's that whole work with what's working, even on an emotional level, like sometimes Just do the things that feel good. It doesn't always have to be work, it really doesn't Exactly. It has to be consistent. When you're trying to get something chronic, consistency is quite key. You have to do a little bit often, that is true, but it doesn't always. It should be things that you look forward to because they make you feel better, like if you go to do your, your tools that you're using for chronic pain and you're like, oh, I've got to do this again, choose a different tool. It shouldn't give you that reaction. You should be looking forward to it because when you use that tool, something shifts Doesn't necessarily mean that your pain is going to go away in that moment. It doesn't usually work like that, but something shifts, and look for those little shifts, celebrate those shifts and Find the tools that you look forward to incorporating. 

47:44 - Andrea Moore (Host)
I love that and I what I want to add to that is the assess something After the fact, like after you do it, how you feel. I Still notice there are certain things that, like I don't necessarily look like. I do kind of have to be like Andrew, just like get down and do like your breath work, or you know, get down and do. 

48:03
Put on music and just dance, like right. It's like there is a little bit, and some days where I'm like I'm not looking for it feels like a hurdle, yep, but I know that when I do it I feel so much better afterwards. And it's like then I have that, I'm like, oh, I'm so glad I did that thing. Right, it's like so, it's like assess how you feel after which. Also then, because I think a lot of people like to use the argument of oh well, if I just, you know, do what made me feel good, then I would just like sit on the couch and like eat Cheetos all day, or, you know, then I would just like drink a shit ton of alcohol, yeah, but would you really feel good afterwards? 

48:38
And you're gonna wake up feeling like it and like hungover or whatever. That. That isn't what makes you actually feel good. That's a temporary yeah dissociation from symptoms, which is very different from I. I did something and now there's like a ripple effect of yes, that and thank you for pointing that out, because you're right, I was trying to oversimplify. 

49:00 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
It's true, you're not going to look forward to every tool. That is very true. But, like like you pointed out, follow that ripple effect and it might be a few days later that you have that effect from that thing that you did. But start to notice those patterns and, and even if it's not something you look forward to, I still think you don't always have to Choose the things that you hate. 

49:20 - Andrea Moore (Host)
You know my gosh. Yes, there's a gain of balance. 

49:22 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
There we have to push ourselves. Sometimes we have to use extra motivation to get through certain things. But once you've built up enough of a repertoire, hopefully you get to the point where you can choose the things that you're more looking forward to than not, as is the point there. 

49:36 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Absolutely as many as my clients, though I hate journaling, oh do it every now and then when I'm feeling very inspired and I want to. Yeah, that is one thing that I never forced myself to do it. I had period, the times where I did naturally, and then I was just like, uh, I want to write it down. 

49:52 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
I thought it's because journaling is a part of it's a part of. There is a journal prompt every week in my program and I was shocked at how many people Never open the prompt, because even seeing the prompt triggered them in some way and and I was not that was a big surprise to me. I was not expecting it. Some got over it, tried it, found it successful. Some tried it, did not find it successful, and and it just it's again. 

50:18
We're all so different, right, and that's part of why Find programs or professionals who have a lot of different choices to offer, because not everything is going to work for you, and then pick and choose. To me it's like a tasting menu. You try a whole bunch of things. Maybe this doesn't work on its own, but when you combine it with something else, it does, you know, and you have to take a bit of trial and error, which which takes effort, it does, and it takes time, which is hard when you've tried a million other things. But there is a solution out there. So try to keep that hope alive, because pain is always changeable, no matter how long you've lived with it. 

50:52 - Andrea Moore (Host)
I'm so with you and I think that's a beautiful note to end on, even though I could talk to you for another hour. Where can, where can people find find you or find out more about your program? 

51:03 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
So I share a lot of free practices on youtube, instagram and facebook. So youtube is stillness in motion with Colleen Jorgensen. So is facebook. Instagram is underscore stillness in motion and my the next round of my pain care program, dare to heal, is starting march 11th, so you can check out my website calling jorgensenorg, and I will shortly be announcing that doors are open to sign up for that program. I also have a free pain care bundle I can share the link with you, andrea which just has some practice, like some practices like we've been talking about breath, mindfulness, some movement and a little bit of pain care education. So people can grab that free product as well. 

51:42 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Amazing and any last words that you want to leave people with seek joy like, let yourself be open to it. 

51:49 - Colleen Jorgensen (Guest)
And um, I don't mean it in that hippie-dippy way, I really mean it from a genuine place of science that if you open yourself up or maybe let yourself use the External tools to be able to tap into that capacity for joy inside, it does help with the pain in some capacity. It's not the one and only thing, but in some capacity. So try it out a little bit Beautiful. Thank you so much, colleen. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you having me on.